[Re:Build] Class Changes

[crevox]

Added Chronomancer.

[yodish92]

By comparison, ToS is far too forgiving, to the point of being insulting to the player.

i can play a cwdt build and face tank shaper in PoE, there are even builds that actually use non interaction as the concept(dual ichimonji), how is that any different to what your saying here lol, the only thing is i have to actually build my character this way, but the choice to do so is available.

Also no, it’s not subjective. You can have the same ‘mowing ■■■■ down’ gameplay that’s fun and relaxing AND much more challenging content in the same game. being able to play this way should be a reward for building smartly and playing skillfuly

there isnt any empirical evidence to suggest what your saying, yea you can put some interesting mechanics in the combat and you can develop really deep gameplay but its not guaranteed to change the way a player feels about the experience, they could dismiss it entirely, find it exciting or get tired of it and come to loath it, people gonna be people lol, same goes for my argument of
“more monsters plz” but at least i can say that its a more favorable sentiment based on my experience with the PoE community and the thirst for packsize in maps

ToS as it currently stands caters WAY too much to the former, and not even in a way that’s good. The enemy ai and the distribution of difficulty is just objectively poorly and lazily designed. Don’t excuse mediocrity. If you compare ToS to other games in the genre, the mob difficulty balance and design is a very poor showing by ARPG standards. ToS absolutely could be in a state to become a strategic and deep experience if IMC would just re-evaluate how they design monsters and some of the systems that limit its potential.

whew, talk about demanding lol, they would have to develop a new game if they actually tried this, baby steps i guess, but it doesn’t seem like they are heading in that direction.

And keep in mind, when I say difficulty, I do not mean ‘monsters hit harder and have more hp’. I mean give us a reason to use some of these interesting class abilities we get in ToS. We have tons of really unique skills with clever ways to control the battlefield,

i think this should be reserved for bosses and what not, personally i would find it taxing if i keep having to play on my toes all the time when im in the game.

[_DrRM_]

As a chrono all this makes me sad

[tenchihawkwing]

Well, Pass is technically buffed and everyone can dash now so the loss of haste doesn’t seem terribad (aside from the fact that now you have to carry stamina items)
Losing Quicken is kinda lame especially while losing the crit res attribute on slow at the same time but… them’s the breaks, I guess.

Could be worse! They coulda nerfed Pass too. I’ll count my blessings lol

[Dandu]

Thanks for the hard work! This helps a lot

[mert_aday]

So, since gungho is not decreasing def anymore and guardian reworked, is it now possible to use together ?

[frustratedsquirrel2]

1. Building your character a certain way to achieve a certain outcome is VERY different from a game having it be the default state of a normally geared character. If you have the ability to build that way and it’s an intended way to play the game, then that’s fine, but you should have to WORK to achieve that state.

2. A player liking or disliking something based on their preferences is subjective. But there are principles of good design that are not subjective. A person not liking an objectively well-drawn artwork (one that has objectively good fundamentals, anatomy, colour theory, composition, perspetive, etc) because they don’t like the style is fine, but it doesn’t mean that artwork can be called bad. Game developers can aim to make good games regardless of the style they choose, but it is possible for them to also get lazy and rely on their consumers having low standards. This is why we see so many AAA titles being utter garbage while still selling well, and ultimately is detrimental to the game industry as a whole as it drags the quality of games down over time.

3. those of us who love this game should be critical and demanding, because there’s so much untapped potential here for something really great. I personally don’t think they’d need to develop an entirely new game to fix some of the bad decisions they’ve made since open beta.

4. wanting an entire game to be easy mode just because you personally don’t want to have to think is detrimental to the game’s overall potential though. Remember my kiddie pool example. A well balanced game can have content that should require more thought and reward you accordingly, and easier less stressful content as well for those times you just want to relax. Right now it’s relax mode for like 95% of the game. Ragnarok balanced this way better by having certain maps that were incredibly stressful, with alternatives you could visit at any time that had much easier monsters. This also had the additional perk of making every significant map have its own flavor, character and meta that players could learn.

[Nekorin]

Bokor Class Changes:

• Shifted from Cleric Tree to Wizard tree.

• Zombify no longer is a ground circle. It becomes an aoe debuff on the monsters which will spawn a zombie when they are killed while the debuff is active.

• Damballa loses the remove knockback attribute.

• Ogouveve is removed

• Zombies are more like actual zombies, the slow moving ones. They no longer rmove fast.

Biggest change in Bokor, Zombie Capsule now has 0 cooldown as opposed to 5 secs cooldown we have now. This is a huge change imo. As Bokor is in wizard now and all wizards have innate surespell, Bwa Kayiman is actually usable now, but it is still a situational 1 pointer imo.

[yodish92]

Building your character a certain way to achieve a certain outcome is VERY different from a game having it be the default state of a normally geared character. If you have the ability to build that way and it’s an intended way to play the game, then that’s fine, but you should have to WORK to achieve that state.

in PoE’s case you dont really have to try lol, basically make a jugg then ??? and face tank, right now in ToS you can just grab a peltasta and face tank endgame content

A player liking or disliking something based on their preferences is subjective. But there are principles of good design that are not subjective. A person not liking an objectively well-drawn artwork (one that has objectively good fundamentals, anatomy, colour theory, composition, perspetive, etc) because they don’t like the style is fine, but it doesn’t mean that artwork can be called bad. Game developers can aim to make good games regardless of the style they choose, but it is possible for them to also get lazy and rely on their consumers having low standards. This is why we see so many AAA titles being utter garbage while still selling well, and ultimately is detrimental to the game industry as a whole as it drags the quality of games down over time.

having complicated / interesting monsters doesn’t constitute good fundamentals for this genre imo as far as trash mobs go, they can be as shitty as possible for all i care, what makes ToS and games like it interesting should be the loot and the builds you can make to ■■■■ on the monsters with aka. PoE lol, oh and right now im beta testing Lost Ark and it pretty much hits the spot for how combat should feel for modern arpg’s and yes the monsters are as dumb as in ToS , but the animations and chaining of combos is fun as heck.

those of us who love this game should be critical and demanding, because there’s so much untapped potential here for something really great. I personally don’t think they’d need to develop an entirely new game to fix some of the bad decisions they’ve made since open beta.

never said i wasn’t, i just dont particularly care for harder or interesting monsters, i would rather they focus their efforts on making good items and making the character builds more interesting(which they are trying to do atm with rebuild)

wanting an entire game to be easy mode just because you personally don’t want to have to think is detrimental to the game’s overall potential though

easy mode for when its appropriate, eg. being in fields maps and strolling around watching the scenery etc, yea in boss fights we should get our asses whooped if we dont try, im not opposed to the idea of interesting and hard monsters i just think they should be reserved for difficult content, instead of escalating the whole game into ass clench territory like dark souls or something lol

[frustratedsquirrel2]

In both cases you need to make specific decisions in order to be able to do that. You take jugg or you take peltasta. You shouldn’t be able to stand around in mobs as an undergeared cleric just because you invested 80 con and have unupgraded berthas heavy armor

If you don’t have complicated/interesting monsters, then there’s no POINT in making builds to destroy the monsters with. That’s just like shooting into a barrel with a variety of different guns. Real skill expression comes from using the tools given to you in order to solve problems. When you make a build, it fills a purpose. It has its own flavor and specialty, and without interesting mob designs those specialties are meaningless.

Everything you say is ‘I don’t care for this, I don’t care for that, I personally don’t care about this’ but I’m not talking about what your personal preferences are. I’m talking about the game’s design/potential as a whole and the bigger picture. It’s like watching a cartoon or anime - you might not care about or appreciate anatomy principles as a consumer, but that doesn’t mean the animators should be allowed to get away with ignoring fundamentals. Even the blobbiest of calarts cartoon styles have to use some form of anatomical fundamentals to be held to any kind of standard.

You’re obviously a very easy consumer to please, and that’s great. More power to you, but I would rather see this game become something really great if possible and rise above ‘just good enough’. A harder game will always have more for a person to master, and therefore more to learn and more to play. A game that’s perpetually easy and stripped down can only plateau much sooner. “strolling around and watching the scenery” is something you’ll only enjoy once or twice, as the maps are static and never change. There’s also nothing to do while looking at said scenery, because the objective design is lazy and minimal. Challenging enemies and interesting game design can provide thousands of hours of real replay value as there’s much more to learn.

Also we’re really derailing this topic. We should probably stop 'cause I don’t think we’ll be able to settle this in any meaningful or constructive manner ^^;

[yodish92]

If you don’t have complicated/interesting monsters, then there’s no POINT in making builds to destroy the monsters with. That’s just like shooting into a barrel with a variety of different guns. Real skill expression comes from using the tools given to you in order to solve problems.

skill expression isnt the only way to enjoy something, just killing stuff mindlessly is good fun for many people, hell even clicking can be good fun eg. cookie clicker and idle games, and to open another can of worms, the game isnt exactly the most stable with its netcode, so making harder monsters would just screw the high ping people over, its the fundamental they have to fix over everything else.

Everything you say is ‘I don’t care for this, I don’t care for that, I personally don’t care about this’ but I’m not talking about what your personal preferences are. I’m talking about the game’s design/potential as a whole and the bigger picture.

oh cmon lol, you started it by commenting on my personal opinion, if you didnt care you wouldn’t post back, so chill

You’re obviously a very easy consumer to please, and that’s great. More power to you, but I would rather see this game become something really great if possible and rise above ‘just good enough’. A harder game will always have more for a person to master, and therefore more to learn and more to play. A game that’s perpetually easy and stripped down can only plateau much sooner. “strolling around and watching the scenery” is something you’ll only enjoy once or twice, as the maps are static and never change. There’s also nothing to do while looking at said scenery, because the objective design is lazy and minimal. Challenging enemies and interesting game design can provide thousands of hours of real replay value as there’s much more to learn.

true i have a soft spot for isometric action games.
anyway i agree with your sentiments, i dont know if you actually read what i said before, but ill say it again, i am not against putting difficult or challenging monsters in this game, but its not something that should be implemented across the board, like what you seem to infer, you haven’t said it out right so thats how i interpret your opinion

Also we’re really derailing this topic. We should probably stop 'cause I don’t think we’ll be able to settle this in any meaningful or constructive manner ^^;

im not even trying to settle anything, you just commented on what i thought and im retorting back, you dont like my opinion(basically to increase the spawn rates of field maps and keep the monsters as is) but im not particularly opposed and agree with some of the stuff your saying lol

[frustratedsquirrel2]

killing stuff mindlessly is fun for some people, but that doesn’t necessarily make a good game. Do you get what I’m saying? the keyword ‘mindlessly’ should speak for itself there. Cookie clicker and idle games are not really what I’m referring to when I talk about game design principles here. They’re part of the problem in declining quality in videogame development and half of the reason why mechanical depth has been dumbed down so much in the industry as of late, because these mobile and minigame genres are bleeding over into actual videogames and standards are being lowered across the board, which is leading to things like Diablo Immortal crawling out of the woodwork. I know that sounds elitist af but it is very noticeable and very depressing, especially with all the recent examples of mismanagement happening as of late.

Again, it’s fine if you don’t have high standards (and I don’t mean that in a demeaning way), but it’s not good for the industry or gaming overall to try to normalize these lazy practices.

AS for netcode and ping, ragnarok online players dealt with low ping and dangerous enemies for years. ToS players can do it too. I really don’t believe that the sluggish enemy AI and janky hit detection is in any way intended to help players with lower ping by design. This is a game where your ping determines whether or not you’re allowed to play a dex build, after all.

I have a soft spot for isometric action games too, which is why I try to be critical on the genre (among others). Because we have so many great examples of awesome isometric action games over the years, they shouldn’t be regressing in modern times.

But yeah that’s the last I’ll say on this topic. Not like IMC is going to be reading it anyway.

[yodish92]

killing stuff mindlessly is fun for some people, but that doesn’t necessarily make a good game. Do you get what I’m saying?

yes, but a good game at its core is fun right?, i dont want to talk about the metaphysical mumbojumbo of “fun” and “game” ill leave it at that lol

leading to things like Diablo Immortal crawling out of the woodwork.

oh man dont even mention diablo immortal…
i get what your saying with the lowering standards and all, but i think gaming evolved this way because of society and technology, something which cannot be controlled, basically there isn’t really much we can do about it…

Again, it’s fine if you don’t have high standards (and I don’t mean that in a demeaning way), but it’s not good for the industry or gaming overall to try to normalize these lazy practices.

for dungeons and infrequent content my standards are just as high as yours, i do like raids where i could get killed if dont play properly, im more irked that you seem to view my opinion as a something one dimensional… sorry for string the pot.

AS for netcode and ping, ragnarok online players dealt with low ping and dangerous enemies for years. ToS players can do it too. I really don’t believe that the sluggish enemy AI and janky hit detection is in any way intended to help players with lower ping by design

well i wouldn’t excuse them for making a game with a bad netcode especially these days, atleast for online games optimization takes priority, for this particular area my standards are extremely high, since i play from a country with a bad location for online gaming, so im always looking for something i can enjoy on the same level as people close to the servers.

But yeah that’s the last I’ll say on this topic. Not like IMC is going to be reading it anyway.

true, if only we had better correspondence with the devs =/

[Takoh]

RIP Re: Build
Looks like it isn’t going well, don’t think we’ll get it any time soon.

트리 오브 세이비어

[crevox]

RIP Re: Build
Looks like it isn’t going well, don’t think we’ll get it any time soon.

They already gave a date of release (December 6th) AND said this FAQ was going to be posted.

This is nothing unexpected and does not mean it’s not going well.

[Takoh]

[gosheven]

december 6th in korea i guess?

[xgearbladex]

Uau cara que trabalho incrivel. Meus parabens, eu add no meu navegador.
(Nice work man)