Tree of Savior Forum

Rant about Rogue

In many games rogue is close to archer. While archer main bow and use dagger in close combat to not be completly owned in melee, the rogues are fighting in close combat most of the time and just use bows/crosbows to take aggro from monsters or to attack while they got bind (rooted) by magic, to not be completly owned by ranged.

In several games rogue advancement is assasin(thief) or an archer(hunter) - you specialize with one of the weapons the rogues may use. In other games, such as Nostale, an archer can choose its spells before combat and become an Assasin who use daggers only (+chain hook/bombs), an Ranger with more range and better bow-related skills, or some sort of mecha-archer who uses pistols, guns, etc.

Basically archers and rogues are usually weak on STR and lack of durability. Instead they get plenty of DEX and dodge + lots of crits to made up for it. While archers use DEX for p.att with bows and benefit from distance combat to avoid being hurt, the assasins use DEX more for dodging attacks and getting better crits, as they engage in close combat and need to kill enemy fast or dodge as many hits possible.

You can think of it as a character who lack of brute force and physical strenght. A character that uses cunning, tricks, dexternity - all possible methods to counter his fragilness: from attacking at distance, to use blinding gas, slow down skills, poisons that weaken enemy, traps, bombs, invisibility, and most notably, they aim for weak points of enemies to land critical hits.

Swordsman on the other hand is the brute force warrior with plenty of stamine - they dont need trickery to win combat - they are very sturdy and can carry heavy swords to hurt enemies hard even without critical hits.

For me its rather weird that shinobi is not in archer tree as their hidden class. Afterall shinobi uses tricks, cunning, etc to fight enemies. It doesn’t fit for a swordsman to suddenly start throwing daggers/kunai or shurikens. Just imagine Hulk throwing shurikens - seriously why would he do that?

Rogues are bandits that actually used bows for ranged weaponry before getting up close with daggers, think robin hood and his group. So its not rly out of their fantasy to be in the archer tree.

Now lets get back to the topic. Im still going to give rogue a try and experiment with it.

I think poeple tend not to look at attributes for the skills. Theres a very usefull attribute on feint that makes backstab slightly more valuable.

I just don’t see Backstab being THAT useful outside of pvp. I guess when I think of rogues I think more of the “stealth and ambush from the rear” as a core part of the gameplay. That doesn’t seem to be the case with ToS’s version and even if it were, how often are you able to sneak up on aggressive mobs in this game?

Rogue definitely belongs in the Archer tree, since it’s not a brute force Swordsman type of character

I was planning to pick Rogue, but as I said, you’ll pretty much never even get a chance to Backstab someone in PvP, since people will almost always face you and you’ll never manage to get behind them. Finding cloaked Scouts with AoE is easy. Also, Feint gives very little time for you to land a Backstab, if your target knows what he’s doing, he’ll turn around immediately. PvE wise, you can’t even pick Scout, since you’ll have almost no damage and will have to rely on your early rank class skills. I decided to drop the assassin gimmick build and just gonna roll with Fletcher

Also, Circling+Backstab works, so try it if you want

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Sorry, what?

Rogue in RO is a 2nd class change (NOVICE -> Thief -> Rogue) so you being upset it’s not an initial class by bringing up RO, in which Rogue is also not an initial class, baffles me.

What about flu flu’s fear from scout? Does it work on bosses and against players? is it a chance? Cuz thats another way to get backstabs in

i find Burrow interesting since it doesnt look like it has any duration time.

Can you burrow for life o3o ? Combined with running shot i guess it could be good? if they stack of course.

The problem is Rouge most skills are melee. Melee should be an optional for any kind of Archer. NOT LIKE THIS.
Add throwing dagger(very low cd) and buff Vendetta should do the work.

@STAFF_John

i dont know man rogue seems viable to me, bossing wise atleast

Maybe once Hackapell comes out Rouge will have more use in builds.

Don’t understand the hate for Rouges, really i don’t.
Vendetta has little damage? what? at least according to TOS skill build, it does as much damage as backstab if the target bleeds (which backstab applies), also its ranged.
Getting the STR bonus from adds/mobs is easy, as it hits hard enough, just by looking at the numbers.

Sneak hit by itself is a good reason to pick the rogue tree, it probably ain’t going to be that good at AOE clearing, but i see its a huge boost in DMG vs bosses, solo or party, and in general vs single targets.
Ranger tree covers up the AOE issues.

From the videos i saw you can “dance” around bosses and it takes time for them to turn around, means you can get sneak hit into effect, this gets easier with evasion as it boosts move speed.

The “Close range” rogue playstyle works even better with Ranger Barrage, as you can activate Sneak hit and “Shot gun” the boss with barrage for insane burst damage.

Sneak hit+ swift step + all other CRIT modifiers on most of the archer/ranger tree can result in alot of CRITs without even stacking Dex.

Here is an example (PvE).

Rogue C2 can also be changed for Musketter, as honestly Rogue C1 is enough for just sneak hit alone.

Considering that it has a 30s cd, need to be charged, and only deals 1k damage (or 2k with bleed) at lv 10, it seems pretty lackluster to me.

It might seems “OK” when you compare it to backstab but it doesn’t look “OK” when you compare it to cannon blast or snipe. Both of them hits harder, have lower CD, doesn’t need to be charged, and is AoE (snipe can be AoE with circling).

Unless I’m missing something obvious…

Snipe is just overrated, im talking PvE wise, its 25 sec CD, there is nothing short here.
Snipe Circle AOE got nerfed pretty hard, and the AOE circle is very small, so don’t count on that.

Its powerful, yes, but its not going to be the top of your most damaging skills in your rotation due to its high CD.

Cannoneer is just broken OP right now, it will get nerfed, just a matter of time.

Vendetta is the least of the attractions of the Rogue tree, my point was just to show it as fine skill with good utility when grinding through trash packs.

Sneak hit is the real star and what can cause insane damage, especially at 10/10 with full uptime, 80% CRIT rate increase and the CRIT stacking synergy of the entire archer tree in general.

more so, this build, and CRIT stacking encourge full STR build, which can result in some massive CRITs without even touching DEX.

It requires good skill and positioning during fights, but the pay off is more then worth it.

Rogue is less of a brain-less button clicking rotation and more about positioning in PvE, and it has a good reward for that.

Correct me if I’m wrong but Backstab only applies “Massive Bleeding” when the target already has Bleeding debuff. So you would need to pick up QS, Fletcher, or Hunter in order to apply the Bleeding debuff. That or you’ll just have to party with someone that can apply Bleeding.

I think the hate for Rogues is because the “thief/assassin” type class is usually good at PvP which isn’t really true in ToS. PvE wise the class seems fine.

Youre correct, only when theres a bleed already will massive bleeding from Backstab work. THeres also the issue that Massive Bleeding attribute increases backstab CD by 10 secs.

Ok i didn’t know that fact about massive bleeding.

Thing is, if people will pick Rogue, they’re only picking it for the buffs and debuffs, since Vendetta is garbage and Backstab is difficult to use and is only good with Karacha Set. Also the fact that Rogue is kind of a melee class makes it difficult to pair together with a lot of other classes. Right now, a lot of builds feature Rouge C2 going into Cannoneer, but once R8 comes out, everyone will prioritize Cannoneer’s skills to deal damage, forgetting most of the skills Rogue has.

There are many classes that are picked for C1 because they have 1 good skill to offer.
Falconer for example, its main attraction is Circle, the rest are just gimmicks and won’t get used in main rotation anyway.

Musketter is another example of it being attraction mostly due to Snipe.

Sneak hit, if utilized properly, can sky rocket the damage output.
Also considering the slow animation of enemies in the game, and how slow they turn around compared to the player’s hero, its extremely easy to utilize it, even without feint.

Also how exactly Backstab is difficult to use (PvE wise)? just a normal skill like any other, and very powerful if you have bleed synergy.
Considering with the insane CRIT stacking you can get by picking rogue, you can go Full STR, a CRIT from backstab with Full STR hits REALLY HARD, and it can hit twice.

Vendetta is a good skill if you have fletcher and is very useful when clearing trash packs, as its easy to keep the STR buff going.

Rogue C1+ Cannoner is no joke, unloading Cannoer AOE on the back of a Boss/Trash packs can result in some crazy CRITs, Rogue C1 also doesn’t limit you to melee.

And also regarading melee, sometimes its a good idea to go into point blank to “Shot gun” enemies/Bosses with Barrage, so its not a bad idea to get close.

He is talking about pvp, ofc its not dificult to land Backstabs on bosses.

Vendetta is useless in boss fights unless they summon minions which generally isnt the case. Also to be actually decent and worth the points, vendetta should go very high in skill points 10+ if not the 15 from C3, which leaves you with less points somewhere else.