wouldn’t you rather ask for a buff to other classes then a nerf? last time
i checked it’s stil tree of cleric, i mean… it’s not like wiz is having
that much dps classes and having a pure dps class doing insane dps
if you focus on it doesn’t seem all that crazy to me
I’m not giving any vote because the problem DOES NOT lie in Agny alone. In fact, you can buff the rest of the class or nerf Agny or whatever and it still wouldn’t solve the problem. And that’s because the damage formula of this game is a metastatic problem with a bunch of self-destructing scaffolds. Whoever made the damage formula in this game should go burn in a figurative fire. Lemme tell you a story:
First, we have the stupid, flat increase, horribly scaling skills. Players cried because they can’t perform well in later content. What did IMC do? They buffed the gem system and introduced transcendence. Soon, players began running around steamrolling PvE like eating breakfast. IMC decided to “fix” this by introducing a mega-buffed R8 mobs, along with the crazy ass high base damage R8 skills. This, in turn, broke the Wizard tree who relied on multihits. Then IMC tried to pitch in another fix by giving Agny, which as you can see, does not go very well.
Do you see the problem here?
3 Likes
S■■■ting on the developer doesn’t help either, but you’re still doing it
Preventing allies from knocking your fireball would’ve done wonders for pyros without having this agny necklace. IMC noticed a problem with pyro, they were meant to be a pure dps class and they failed at it. Instead of fixing the broken mechanics of the class, they simply just put a lazy, broken item and now Pyro has highest(or rrally close to it) wiz dmg all of a sudden.
They meant well, but really missed the mark. Derp. Either nerf agny or introduce similar gear for other elements/classes. I do like the concept of agny and would like to see more items of the like, just not as strong.
how is agny broken? fireball can be knock around basically making your dps = 0
rain and storm calling can shutoff/troll you at world boss.
fire resist mobs heals on your fire spell instead.
pyro is op only during solo, not much in party especially with melee class.
even with agny, pyro only shine at lv 120 to 260. anything above still depends on equipments.
2 Likes
It’s so transparent that everyone defending Agny has an Agnymancer
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->agny broken
->pyro lose in damage to fencer, doppel, cataphract and other classes
MAX
KEK
Agny just make pyro viable, i’ts not a broken item. We need a SADhu agny now
i just wish they release more element necklace like agny but not limit it to magic attacks
[quote=“Leonder, post:20, topic:347707”]
Yeah, buut… if you pick something like Swordsman 3 you’ll be using it’s buffs pretty much forever.[/quote]
In my opinion all classes and skills should be and stay useful, even when more powerful skills/classes come out. And it wouldn’t really be a problem to change it like that if they’d take time to properly balance it and if they didn’t have such an extreme power increase curve with monsters and skills.
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Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think Agny is not broken, nor am I defending Agny. What I was saying is that to fix the mess that is Agny, we need to fix the situation that makes Agny necessary to make Pyro viable in the first place.
I’m not against R8 classes being dominant either. What I want is for lower rank classes to NOT become obsolete. Sure you can have a dethroning Dragoon, but at least make it have hidden synergies with lower classes so we can still have fun bringing along our beloved Highlander! Maybe Pyro needs a buff, but definitely not Agny. Maybe make an incremental damage in multihit skills? Throw in size/armor type modifier? Maybe make it more spammable? The crew at HQ might not be brainstorming enough.
Edit: Oh, and to anyone at all that think adding more elemental necklace will fix the problem: Don’t. Those necklaces are scaffolds that will break things around even more when the damage system doesn’t have a strong basis.
1 Like
Name me a game that it’s perfect balanced, every game I know has currently meta build and hipster cool kids builds
Yeah, but we could have something that turn Cryomancers into a “DPS” class. Maybe giving up CC for some frostbite damage, I don’t know. And I don’t mean to make it viable for 280+ content, but just so it’d have some damage until 200+
What makes Pyro ‘broken’ is how Joint Penalty works with fireballs.
1 Like
The beauty of Tree of Savior lies in the fact that it’s not another “hurr durr more DPS more good kek” brain dead MMO. As such, transforming Cryo, or Thaum, or Linker, or Alchemist, or anything for that matter into DPS class (when they originally are not) would not help the balance in any way. Instead, why don’t you look at it the other way?
Cryo might kill really slowly, but they are originally a soft CC with their freezing specialty. What we should do is amplify its specialty and make more synergy with other classes on the Wizard tree. Maybe they can have a new attribute where frozen enemies take continuous/more damage? Make frozen enemies movable? Make freezing status contagious? I personally think it would be better this way to make Cryo more viable without being DPS.
2 Likes
Yeah, I get what you’re saying. I just like this concept of Ice Wizard so much that I wish that there was some way to kill stuff with ice. Maybe a new R9 that has synergy with Cryo skills
Agny is too strong imo, I do have pyro-linkers (note the s) in my characters and I find them overwhelmingly strong with agny.
Do have to agree with everything @Sayurichan said. Agny seems like a by-product of what the current system which is focused heavily on transcendance and high rank class damage.
There are many factors that led to the decisions made by IMC, which in turn become what we have now. From what I see, it kind of boils down to the way progression is handled in a grind based MMO.
Most players are trained or rather like to see progression in a simpler manner, higher numbers dealt to their adversaries and lower numbers dealt to them when they get hit. Which is why we see many MMOs have this system where the numbers get higher and higher as players progress through the game.
There is nothing wrong with this model, as it is a rather good way to define progress. But, that is usually when the game has classes which is pretty much defined and constrained right at the beginning of the game. Classes which are defined like being a swordsman->crusader in RO makes this kind of damage progression easy to gauge and balance between skills amongst other classes.
ToS is a different beast altogether, with characters picking their favorite progression “jobs”, to mix and match a build with different types of classes. And since classes are segregated with ranks which are only attainable with player progression, naturally the higher level classes will have skills and damage that have to suit the character level in which they are attained.
This creates the damage gaps between low level classes and high level classes, with players who take support classes like chronomancer or alchemist being left with mediocre damage as their high rank choices are used for support. As we can see, IMC tried to balance low rank and high rank attack classes by introducing items such as Agny Necklace so that Pyromancers can still be viable end game. This is not a foolproof idea however, as it completely destroys the early/mid game where Pyros will outdamage every single other attack class once they have the item. Just advocating this means in future we will have a lot more of these “band-aid” items to help balance the ranks. This will just widen the divide, making all lower rank useless. In the end the only thing that matters is what we take for last 2-3 class.
Personally I don’t think this is what everyone, including IMC wants.
How do we, or rather how do IMC solve this problem, especially when we are already knee deep into this “Transcendence”, huge damage hole? I have a suggestion, although it is rather raw, but I think it might just be what we need.
Suggestion: Introduce another shiftable attribute called 'Efficiency/Emphasis Orbs
What does this Efficiency/Emphasis Orbs (EO) do? As a player gains in class rank, he or she also gain 1 EO. So at Rank8 the player will have 8 EOs, Rank10 10EOs and so forth. Balance all classes across all ranks to do roughly around the same damage dealt (dps terms), which should be alot easier since all hierarchy is gone in terms of dps balancing. Then the player can freely distribute EOs across his/her classes as deem fit. Each EO allocated to the class will increase the damage and efficiency of the class itself. With 5+EOs distributed to a single class will make the class able to dish out damage good enough to clear the end game content. The other classes with no EO will be of base efficiency.
For example a build with
Wizard1 > Pyro 3 (5EO) > Cryo 3 (3EO) > Elementalist 2
This wizard will have really good fire damage skills able to deal with R8 content, with good support Cryo3 damage while emphasising on the circle 2 attributes of elementalists. A true frostfire mage.
The player can then switch the EOs (via a town NPC to prevent abuse) to something like
Wizard1 > Pryo 3 > Cryo 3 (8EO) > Elementalist 2
Then this wizard will be an awesome frost mage that kills with snowrolling in R8 content while having many supportive skills from pyro and elementalists to help up the damage a little.
The EO addition helps players find what they like best. They can play as a Corsair with 8EOs without feeling limited by the upper damage limits of the class rank itself (since corsair damage is R5-7), and still feel awesome while clearing rank 8 content. Players who choose to capitalise on early damage classes like Archer C3 > QS C3 > Ranger C2 wun feel that they make the wrong choice. Support classes with EO attached to it gain more efficiency in their skills, like Thaumaturge gain X * EO more damage buffs on Swell left/right/brain. This makes all classes viable and suited for endgame as their baseline is already set together and their max damage is determined by the number of EOs attached to them.
24 Likes
Well the purpose of Agny Necklace was to make Pyro viable.
What have they done with it?
- Ppl without proper gear still cant deal dmg on high lvl monsters cuz they cant pierce the MDef of those
- Ppl with good gear are uncontested DPS wise cuz the multiplier gets added at the end resulting in incredible high numbers.
What would be the solution?
Just change the way Agny works. Make the multiplier work on the skill base DMG. Only Skill Dmg not the Dmg added by weapons.
This way lower geared persons can take full advantage of it and can finaly pierce the MDef.
Also higher geared persons will still deal more dmg just not that crazy numbers.
Still i believe the way the dmg is calculated is complete bullshit in this game.
U only throw multipliers on mutlipliers and the dmg skyrockets.
1 little example. (also a little hint on this video posted in one of the earlier posts here - this wasn´t cuz of Agny but of Melees litaraly annihilating this boss - Fencer + Dragoon)
Take an Fencer, throw in an Enchanter and a Miko Taoist.
Now use Enchant Lightning and Stormcalling and start Miko Dance
Well u only need Sept Etoile as Fencer now.
U deal 16 hits of 199999 Dmg (8 from Sept 8 from Kagura), also spamming Attaque Composee yields to another 4 hits of 199999 Dmg.
Even autohitting brings u up to 150k+
This is all cuz of multipliers which are broken in a combination.
IF there would be no dmg cap…i can even imagine to hit like 4-5 millions easily when full buffed.
4 Likes
i love Nekorin <3
<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
Agree with what @Nekorin mentioned in the post, especially regarding the damage gaps between low level classes and high level classes. And really supportive of the “EO” concept. I feel IMC is consciously shared the same opinion, however the approach to resolve the problem is a bit questionable. It is apparent that lower rank dps classes have been “buffed” to make them relevant for end game content. For example, the Pyro+Agny that we have been talking about, and also Krivis Zaibas+StormCalling. While the later is more acceptable due to the nature of the combo which require more coordination and timing, Agny is practically a blatant buff to all pyro skills, which as mentioned by @Sera1003, should have just been applied directly to the skills themselves. Don’t get me wrong, I am really supportive of pyro to get the buffs even though I don’t have a pyro character, since the class offers interesting gameplay and definitely need to be made viable. I just dont really agree on how IMC implemented that buff. Such “shortcut”/“band-aid” easily caused a lot of “jealousy” amongst some of the other class-fanatics. Thau and Sadhu lovers will silently hating the game, and in the end will just stop playing.
While it is relevant to agny’s topic, I do believe Nekorin’s suggestion worth a thread of its own. Really supportive of the “EO” concept which intended to make lower rank classes relevant and a more interesting options for a build.
please don’t exclude monks from sadhus lol ; even their attempts to try to buff monk several times still result in a useless class lol