Tree of Savior Forum

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General Discussion
#22

What part of “game is going to die unless drastic measures are taken” don’t you understand in my message to you? Do think the money fairy is going to visit IMC and grant them a massively increased GM staff with robust tools and plenty of time to examine every single case on a detailed basis?

What’s your grand plan, then, yeah? Do you have any solutions to offer that don’t involve IMC spending money we all know they won’t spend? If you can’t provide a solution better than “burn them all”, then you’re condemning this game to death.

And don’t try to compare this to real tragedy or real life. Some kids losing a terrible game doesn’t compare to people being falsely imprisoned or what have you. You’re taking this argument in absurd directions.

Back to Ban or Die - answer this question. What is there to do, if not ban indiscriminately? What other options are there?

#23

This gave me a few chuckles lol.

#24

And you think the game is going to live if people get the idea that they have a high chance of getting banned for doing completely legal things that only vaguely have something in common with people who do illegal things, like collecting a large sum of silver or not using the fireplace?

I already provided a better solution : Invest in better anti-cheat technology, only ban those who are proven to be guilty.

It seems to me more like you are the one who is taking this in extremely absurd directions : “just punish everyone, collateral damage and harming innocents is acceptable.” sounds extremely absurd to me.

[quote=“ridleyco, post:22, topic:313789”]
What is there to do, if not ban indiscriminately? What other options are there?[/quote]
It’s quite shocking to me that “Punish everyone, even if innocents are harmed” is the only solution you can see.
As i’ve said : Only ban those who are proven to be guilty.

[quote=“ridleyco, post:22, topic:313789”]
Do you have any solutions to offer that don’t involve IMC spending money we all know they won’t spend?[/quote]
How do you know they won’t spend money on it after noticing that player count will drop if they don’t do anything? Are you working for them? Do you have access to their financial plans? Ir not, how can you claim to know that they won’t spend the money?

Or are you just saying that because you’re frustrated with the current situation? I think that’s more likely.

If the game is important to them and if they have an interest of keeping it online they will spend the money once they notice what impact not fixing these things has.

#25

yea all like 2 of them

and 1 of them probably allready quit

1 Like
#26

All of the things you are saying to me boil down to:
“Well, maybe they’ll spend more money after all.”

Why do you think they would have waited so long to do so? What rationale can you invent on behalf of IMC to allow things to get as bad as they are? I racked my brains for this, and the only conclusion I could come to, is that they were in very tight financial conditions and could not afford to take the measures the community saw necessary to fix catastrophic exploits reported months ago. The alternative is that they didn’t care, which you appear to be pushing towards in our discussion, whether or not you realize it. If that is truly the case, then our conversation is moot, and the game needs to die as quickly as possible.

If you require some evidence beyond mere speculation - although I hazard that my line of thinking is more educated than that - I invite you to examine the posting history of IMC employees.

There’s a lot of GMs who are now conspicuously silent.

#27

I like how we hate IMC for making changes that affect legit and new players but if a suggestion involves nuking legit players then they’re just “collateral damage”.

#28

I am not “we”, and the spirit of this debate is that either IMC goes full nuclear or the game dies completely. If you disagree, then I encourage you to closely examine my discussion with Sayurichan, the state of the forums, and the server population trends in general (hint: they’re tanking)

We are very much faced with one of the fastest MMO deaths in recent history, particularly for a game that was to succeed one of the most overwhelmingly famous.

#29

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#30

Nuking won’t solve anything and it won’t solve the core issues and reason why the game population is tanking.

Great, so we ban the cheaters even if it includes the actual players in it. Fresh start, right?

No.

The effect goes far bigger than just a simple economic reset. Like how people will swim in a beach and the moment someone shouts “SHARK”, all of them will get out even if the shark isn’t there at all and stay off the beach for a whole week until it is confirmed safe again.

When the potential of a danger to all your hardwork is higher than 0, the game becomes nearly impossible to play or spend money in.

This is why games never nuke the players even if dupes are running rampant. You MUST never cross the line. If you do, your whole business model is DEAD. Most games will either introduce a whole new items that render the duped stuffs obsolete, or slowly get rid of them. The first wave will only be there to show that they’re taking a stand.

Let me share something I learn about F2P model. Games don’t “pick” up new players. In business, they use the term “Buying Players”.

Every players come with a cost. All F2Pers are losses. These losses are sustained by the paying customers. The ratio is around 1:5 or even less.

In order to generate profits, we also have what we call “whales”. Whales are about 5-10% of the paying customers. So for every 100 people you pick up, 20 of them will probably pay. From that 20 people, only 1 or 2 will become the profitable sources and THEY MUST DO WHATEVER YOU CAN TO MAKE SURE THESE PEOPLE STAY.

Your big pictures involve actual paying whales leaving because it is them who will be a part of the “Small casualties”, not the casual 2-3 hours per day players. If, say, 20 of them leave, The game will need to pick up 1000-2000 new players by numbers to make up for the losses or start losing contents which hurt the game more in the long run. Do you really think ToS is the type of game to pick up 1000 new players all of a sudden?

3 Likes
#32

You raise a good point!

There do exist people that, while most of their silver did ultimately come from bots originally, came into that silver by buying and reselling premium stuff on the market. The collateral damage from losing them, as it were, would genuinely be too great.

Of course, this archetype of I’ll-buy-anything-to-win usually but not always goes hand in hand with the type of person who’ll exploit to win. There’ll be harpooned whales no matter how this goes down.

But it does make me concede that individuals with more than 100 million silver should simply be investigated instead of blanket banned.

#33

Ban some random fucker who got lucky, yeah okay. I straight shot a weapon to +15 in beta, it’s not like it’s a mathematical impossibility. In fact, did you know the probability of any event that has already happened is 100%?

I’ve farmed over 100mil silver, easily. But I spend it, usually on ■■■■ I don’t need like 1% more damage on a skill or some hat. So maybe someone else has stockpiled 100mil silver for some grand purpose. That’s their call. Your random blanket banning suggestions are garbage and your understanding of how quickly you can obtain silver in this game if you set out to obtain it (and get a bit lucky) is poor.

Banning legitimate exploiters that have been discovered and proven to actually be exploiting? Cool, yeah, makes sense. Just banning people because they have better stuff than you? Nah.

3 Likes
#34

I really doubt they are capable of figuring out who is legit or not, so they wont ban anyone. Fixing bug iself anywhere soon can be called a huge success for them.

1 Like
#35

IF they can do that it´s already a miracle O_o

#36

Thanks for that update! I’m glad to hear that under my rules you’d be just fine, as you don’t have a +15 weapon now, and would pass the investigation for people with 100mil/maxed attributes, being a totally honest user. :wink:

#37

It’s not hard, just search in logs on specific events boom done rip these players.

#38

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#39

I’m convinced they aren’t incapable or ignorant of the game’s problems, and that they do care, but that they’re operating with a skeleton crew of like 3 active developers who just don’t have time to solve all of this that are horribly wrong. That’s the only way I can think of to explain the slow progress.

The other two options are, I suppose, that they don’t care at all, or that they’re really completely clueless about anything and everything, possibly driven by a language barrier and a lack of qualified translators.

…

But in any of these scenarios, the game is either completely screwed, or requires either a wipe or waves of ruthless bans to recover. I don’t entertain the possibility of IMC suddenly doing things right because it’s unrealistic, which is why I am quite convinced extreme measures are the only options.

tldr if IMC had the resources to make their game good it would be good lol

#40

Ya thats how I feel. I swear its just Kim himself in his parents basement trying to unfuck this game.

Most things are on hold since everyone is outside in cars catching pokemon.

#41

And now they shove a bunch of events in our faces instead of keeping us up to date on their progress of saving Tree of Savior from its own player base. This does not look good.

IMC, you don’t really expect us to feel excitement from seeing new things when they’re just built on a collapsing foundation, do you?

1 Like
#42

You know what that last line reminds me of?

Catherine was a pretty fun game though, unrelated.