I have to retract my hypothesis on the restoration part. I think the amount of tests and test data I do isn’t enough to give a full picture of how much exactly does restoration increase in healing.
Conducted another small field test on restoration, restoration levels, and heal. The sample size isn’t really big enough but it does give a general rough idea how much heals per level of restoration. Spent a bit of TP on a skill reset, It does give some insights (to prove my own hypothesis wrong yay)
Here is a clip of the heal tests before the grinding parties kill off my poor specimen err. fauna test buddy.
The heal amount fluctuates quite a bit, and this time round it doesn’t seem like it is following the restoration levels at all with spikes on low restoration levels and low heals on higher restoration levels. The % increase might involve having a static % increase based off the int heal amount? (Need a stat reset potion to really find out though…)
Let me dissect the clip more and get more data first. Any one has a krivis in Telsiai? Shouted for test buddies but no one reply me in shouts.
okay thx alot neko. This is what i think for CON mod ( yea i still think of this ). Its not from Skill LVL but from CLERIC CIRCLE. your CON mod stay in 1.65 from LVL 1 neko. What are common from you and wurm are that cleric circle wich is 2. And mine are only cleric circle 1. I hope the CON mod are correct will do heal testing in cleric circle 1. And lets see the different, and pls test circle 3 cleric if you can
About resto bonus are still a mistery for me lol. later try use LVL 1 and LVL 2 heal using the divine might.
I was able to test with a Krivis today. I didn’t get any screenshots however from my tests Aukuras (or HP Recovery) does not affect the heal tiles (didn’t test with Mass Heal).
His Aukuras was increasing HP Recovery in 75ish and my Restoration 115ish, so if HP Recovery affected we should see a considerable increase, however all I could see was maybe 50~100, but I do believe was just my heal tiles oscilating a bit from what I’m used to see.
The next theory could be related to Restoration skill level, however that would require a Skill Pot Reset to try it out.
So is STR Paladin (Cleric 2 - Diev 1 - Paladin 3 - Oracle/PD) that bad? I keep seeing Smite + Conviction STR-less is still almost on par with full STR. If that is true, then the class balancing has some serious issues.
It’s hard to believe that STR is that bad. Same as INT it does get the 10% rank scaling as well. So I imagine even though at the current level cap of 280 STR-less Smite can deal almost as much damage as full STR build, full STR will eventually scale higher and better than STR-less build.
Also Barrier for sale is disgusting. Basically taking a huge chunk of incentive away (for those who doesn’t want to just make a pally to sell scroll anyway) from a class that’s already in a messy state. They should either remove Barrier from sale OR revamp the whole class.
Currently Paladin, in relation with other classes, just doesn’t feel as fluid. For example:
Contradicting Builds:
This on its own is variety, which is great, but then you have problem number two:
If you go STR, you get contradicted by a whole lot of other INT scaling classes. Worst of all, full STR doesn’t even pull you that far ahead of STR-less builds. Eg, SMITE, CARVE, these skills do really well even without STR. Also worth mentioning that Diev 1 - Paladin 3 is the most natural and smoothest class progression wise. Carve and Smite scales on STR, making it a great STR variant. Or it should have been.
If you go INT, you have the chance of getting screwed by future progression (when max stats scale up to the point where base damage is insignificant, hence weak Smite/Carve). But right now we don’t even know what IMC envision with this class. Plus Paladin doesn’t scale with INT. So if you go INT, it’s like you are taking Paladin as a filler class, you just want specific skills that fit into your INT build (Barrier, Restoration, etc), except this is a Paladin Circle 3 that starts from Rank 4 (competing with Rank 6 & 7 classes).
Then you throw in Pardoner Barrier Scroll selling, might as well just make Paladin when you want to go for the merchant route. Might as well just rename Paladin to Merchant. Because let’s be honest, you take Paladin 3 because you want Barrier, and it sucks for this to happen when you actually want to build a proper Paladin, not the one sitting at town selling scrolls.
Well, even with all the above issues, I will still continue forward on the STR Paladin path, because I have hope that IMC will eventually fix its problems, and also because I love the Paladin class,
actualy this is what i and nekorin found in testing heal. Only initial HP recov are added to heal power. And with restoration will make HP recov x2 + INT scale x2 to heal LVL 10 (Neko) power, And only HP recox x1,5 + INT sclae x1,5 for Heal LVL 5 (mine). There is a little different with resto LVL 2 (mine) and LVL 5 (Neko) for heal LVL 10.
For Mass Heal LVL 5 i got the same value from my formula. But its need more testing
When you step into Paladin you need to understand that you’re not a full DPS class in the first place.
If you want to take a DPS class like Sadhu, you can, but that’s a completely different way of playing your character because you’re losing on Paladin’s supportiveness.
Going INT on a Paladin doesn’t cripple you away from your support skills.
The problem with STR Paladin is both the lack of STR skills and the scaling on the existing ones. Let’s compare STR and INT builds:
Considering a single target enemy, 200 STR vs 200 INT dps with lv 15 Smite vs lv 15 Cure:
Cure:
1 cast of Cure within 26 seconds, 40 hits.
Cure scales twice with INT so 400 + 31 (base) damage per hit (plus gear).
Total Damage ove 26 seconds: 431 * 40 = 17240
Bonus: Double damage against holy weakness mobs.
Bonus Damage: 34.4k
Smite:
6 casts of Smite within 26 seconds (probably less because of animation + positioning), 6 hits. 1 STR adds 1 damage so 200 + 1771 (base) damage per hit.
Total Damage over 26 seconds: 11826
Bonus: Tripple damage against demon/mutant mobs.
Bonus Damage: 35.4k
Usually demon/mutant mobs are also weak to holy, therefore, both skills do around the same damage with their respective builds.
Of course, that comparison is flawed in many aspects because they’re two very different skills. But there’s one crucial thing we are missing: INT builds should also get smite! For a STR build, getting Cure is a complete waste because 80% of the skill’s damage comes from INT alone.
So with an INT build, you have the additional unfair advantage of Smite:
6 casts of Smite within 26 seconds with 1771 (base) damage per hit.
Total Damage over 26 seconds: 10626
Bonus: Tripple damage against demon/mutant mobs.
Bonus Damage: 31.8k
And Ta da~! Your total DPS is almost double now.
But then you say "But wait, you’re forgetting Carve Attack for the STR build!"
But then I say “Well I’m also forgetting Heal for the INT build…”
Considering a single target enemy, 200 STR vs 200 INT dps with lv 15 Heal vs lv 5 Carve Attack:
Heal:
2 cast of Heal within 34 seconds, 30 hits.
Heal scales twice with INT so 400 + 147 (base) damage per hit (plus gear).
Total Damage over 34 seconds: 16.4k
Bonus: Double damage against holy weakness mobs.
Bonus Damage: 32.8k
Carve Attack:
6 casts of Carve Attack within 30 seconds (probably less because of animation + positioning), 30 hits total. 1 STR adds 1 damage so 200 + 178 (base) damage per hit.
Total Damage over 34 seconds: 11340
Bonus: +3k damage against Plants
Bonus Damage: 14.3k
Of course, yet another unfair comparison. Mobs don’t usually step on ALL heal squares. And carve attack makes it a lot easier to hit a single mob than making him chase you around to step on the heal squares…
But that’s just to give you a very very crude idea of the builds DPS comparison.
I’m not really making a very accurate calculation there for many reasons. First, I didn’t make the damage per second, secondly (no pun intended), I didn’t consider all the other effects and actual mechanics of the skills.
BUT OKEY
What else?
Well…
INT build will do A LOT better on healing with level 15 heal and INT boost to heals. It’s not even necessary putting any points into Restoration at all because your heals will be just… lol. But personally I leveled up Restoration and keep my heal remove damage attribute off to heal bomb enemies even during dungeons so I don’t lose that extra DPS (yeah i know, screw the party). There will still be some heal squares on the ground that will most likely heal 30% of party member’s hp on each square… If things get tough you enable again the attribute and give up on the DPS.
For STR builds, Restoration is highly recommended (at least level 1) because you probably have heal level 10 instead of 15 and each square doesn’t heal that much. That aside, the STR build will also get Laima statue that’s kind of “meh” in my opinion. Zemyna/Vakarine are complete garbage in my opinion. Don’t get me wrong, Heal 10 in STR build with Restoration isn’t lacking, but when you have Heal 15 + INT build + Restoration you can just give up on the remove damage attribute, deal some damage, and still heal the party.
Now, DPS and healing aside, you can actually “feel” better with INT build. Heal/Cure doesn’t really hit in AoE but they do have a nice area that Carve Attack completely lacks of. Making mobs just chase you and step into the Cure square is much safer and easier than standing still to attack them with your little knife (esp considering all the things like monsters knock back that i’m not even mentioning here).
To be honest, Carve Attack just feels terrible to use. It’s an extremely short range with a relatively long attack animation and the damage isn’t instant (if the mob moves even just a little during your animation you’ll miss a couple hits). It also consumes a lot of SP (if you compare to Cure).
That’s true, if they are to release rank 8, 9, 10, your Smite lvl 15 with INT will eventually have it’s base damage fall off and not be as useful anymore. But Cure and Heal with INT will always scale much better than Smite and Carve Attack with STR.
Barrier itself is disgusting. It’s only useful in Earth Tower. And the magical damage attribute is a bad joke.
TL;DR
Overall, INT build will do better because you have 3 damage skills in comparison of just 2 in STR build. INT build will have better healing than STR. INT builds get a better feeling of “AoE” damage. STR will only get Laime Statue to compensate for all that.
Your points are true, but that’s exactly the problem. They shouldn’t be. Right now it is just punishing players who build Paladin the way the game encourage us to (Smite and Conviction both STR based and no INT scaling at all). Don’t you find it weird that INT, which goes against Paladin skill scaling wise, performs even better than STR which actually scales its skills?
If they love INT build so much, they should have either: 1. Make Smite and Conviction scale on INT, or 2. Make Smite and Conviction have low base damage (so INT builds don’t get to abuse it), and increase STR scaling, like giving double stat scaling on Cure. Now that’s healthier and rewarding.
The problem isn’t Paladin not having top notch DPS, but the build within the class itself. I hate to say it but it’s just like someone said, STR is a trap. So now you either continue playing a sub-par STR Paladin because you got misled and invested a lot of STR, or you delete and remake the character and waste all the time spent, OR you spend some money to reset your stats.
Very well done.
On scroll selling, I generally think the whole system of selling skills are bad. It invalidates the needs for certain classes. They promote team play and yet they put in a system that contradicts that. Imagine how valuable a cleric class would be if no such system exist, and how party play will thrive even more so. You want to level fast and got a build that relies on Blessing, Sacrament, etc, better socialize party up with a good priest buddy!
So Barrier is useless? This is just great. Why get Paladin at all then? Basically a class that gets out-shined by every other options. Even a Diev 3 has better DPS, utility, and support than Paladin (INT build as well, the pattern is clear).
Restoration - Gets replaced by HP Potions.
SP Regen Attribute - Gets replaced by SP Potions.
Barrier -Useless outside Earth Tower and there’s even Barrier scroll.
Smite & Conviction - Gets out-damaged by other options.
Resist Element - I guess we still have this one, even then it’s just shouting mediocrity.
Why would I even want to make this class. I mean sure, INT Paladin is stronger than STR Paladin, but a INT Diev 3 can out-shine this, why go Paladin at all?
To be honest, I’m more mad about the time and effort wasted more than anything. I wish important, practical info/disclaimer like this should be shown in this info compilation. Then maybe potential paladin players will reconsider before stepping into this vortex of mess that sucks in everything you love about Paladin as a theme and throw them at your face.
Here’s some really screwed up info if the [blessing] patch rolls out as is.
My cleric1-priest3-pardoner2-krivis auto attack his way to rank 7. 0 additional STR and INT. Everything went to 100 total CON and the rest went into SPR (200 total I think cuz I haven’t spent any stat points since hitting that). If this patch rolls out as is my [blessing] will be doing around 338 damage per hit. Cafrisun and [sacrament] automatically makes me do 3x that per auto attack. So my scaling with SPR per auto attack is 252% per swing vs 100% STR per swing.
How does this relate to paladins? You can simply buy the buffs and get the same effect regardless of your stat build.
Perhaps the reason why I didn’t feel this problem as strongly is because I opted for a very strange hybrid experiment. I decided that in making my own Paladin, to actually try to make it as well-rounded as possible to test out: Meaning that I generally leveled. Ofcourse, this meant I did not invest in Dex which equates to no crits. However, because I knew how Heal and Cure scaled to C2.
So far though, if the additional damage to STR and INT are applicable, you should benefit better from going more hybrid- Or rather, you’d naturally get more yield out of it. But with how INT scales and the nature of multi-hit, overall you’d get a better yield currently with INT. I don’t feel quite gimped though. Level 10 (11) Cure and Smite give me a strong uptime on damage on what I can do especially to things that can’t stand Holy damage.
It’s almost as though anything physical in this game is gimped as hell. But I wouldn’t consider Heal to be damaging, because in most cases you’ll be along with a party and thus have your Heal Damage turned off so they could actually heal and not cry. However I do feel as though Paladins are sort of odd: They’re a utilitarian/defensive class, meaning they were never designed to be pure DPS in the first place. Yet they have all these STR-scaling abilities, and it’s core still supports INT and Elemental based attacks.
I haven’t tested it yet, but how does property attacks interract with spells? They should stack, like in the case of Arde to most, right?
So… str paladin is useless now? well s***, i already halfway through str build (C2->D1->P1) so… im planning to reroll a new character, is monk just as useless or better? or even hybrid paladin and monk?
Join the club. I asked for advice on Reddit and same deal. The consensus is that Paladin has inherent class problem, whether you go INT or STR. Other class choices are just better in all the aspects (DPS, support, etc).
But if we narrow down to Paladin only, yes, STR is weaker (or weakest). How the superior damage works in this game is the more hits you can do, the stronger you are in DPS.
This is due to how the damage mechanics work (that’s why stuffs like Arde Dagger is popular and strong).
Essentially, multi-hit skills are almost always better than single hit ones. Smite is a single hit skill and can’t take full advantage of it, so even if you go STR, you are not benefiting as much. This is exacerbated by how Cleric has very few STR/Physical scaling skills.
You can build a Paladin - Monk, but you can’t get both to C3, at least for now. Which is another reason why STR is weaker
Basically it’s not that STR Paladin is very bad, but there are just better options that do the same things but better. Got out-shined.
I have yet to find out how good is a DEX crit-based Paladin though. I didn’t know that Smite can crit until very recently.
I don’t know much about Monk. So with my uneducated guess, Monk + Paladin hybrid is not that good. You might have to drop Paladin to have a stronger Monk-centric build. Just a guess.
Welcome. Do note that I’m not 100% sure on these issues. I suggest keeping that character first if you have the character slot for it, just in case of some new info or changes to the class.
Both int and str palas are horrible damage wise atm.
let’s assume you have 500 str or int at 280:
Around 500 str adds:
500-1000 dmg to smite (enhance, affected by mutant/demon multiplier).
500-1000 dmg to conviction (enhance).
250 dmg to smite’s kd attribute (when it works).
250 dmg to converted physical dmg mobs per hit.
500? dmg to smite + conviction combo. (not sure of scaling/ amount of true hits.)
500 to every auto attack.
[Optional] + 500 - 1000 dmg to carve ( x 5 hits + enhance attribute.)
[Optional] + ? dmg via toy hammer’s explosion.
Around 500 int adds:
825 - 975 additional healing per heal tile.
40%? healing from restoration.
500 dmg per barrier hit.
1000 - 2000 dmg to heal (2x int formula, enhance attribute, per hit.)
1000 - 2000 dmg to cure (2x int formula, enhance attribute, per hit.)
[optional] + 1000 - 2000 dmg to zaibas (2x int formula, enhance attribute, per hit.)
[optional] + 500 - 1000 dmg to effigy (enhance attribute.)
[optional] + 500 - 1000 dmg to aspersion (enhance attribute.)
[optional] + 500 dmg to resurrection.
[optional] + 500 - 1000 dmg to incinerate (enhance attribute, per hit.)
For a simplified run down:
It’s easy to see why people like int pala, it has higher burst dmg. But neither cure or heal can hit flying.
And it’s still very low dmg for a int build, so you’d still need to look for future ranks to fix your lack of dps. (Plague Doctor is a almost a must for int palas due to that.)
Physical builds rely on skill dmg anyway, even if we had proper dmg skills they’d be useless at higher ranks similar to monk.
So either way you’d need potent rank 8-10 physical class options for str to work.
And if we do get that, then being support heavy on the prior ranks will work in your favor.
Dex needs more phys dmg then str does to be worthwhile (at 280 it’s 3500 base dmg), so it’s even less likely to pay off. Nor does it’s poor scaling help.
Arguing about whether int or str palas are a better choice means you’re entirely missing the point though.
They are not dps, and are not designed to be. But they can act just fine as healers and do a little bit of damage on the side.
Both int & str paladin builds will need future ranks to attain decent damage, assuming their options allow it.
(magic builds usually need more ranks for such, where as a physical build relies on getting a physical based subclass.)
And despite the difference being noticeable, neither are sufficient dps. Neither will help you deal with mobs reliably. And both are heavily outperformed dmg wise by almost every other build.
I’d also say that str priest can be more support oriented, diev/priest add more utility (20% cd/res) then krivis/bokor r1. Plus they can grab oracle or kabbalist for r7.
tl/dr:
Stop getting people’s panties up in a twist over nothing.
So what are your suggestions other than don’t play Paladin? I don’t see how me stating the problems I have with Paladin and trying to get more reliable input can stir up others.
Maybe you missed the point as well. How does arguing between STR and INT build relates to other classes having more DPS? This particular argument is confined within the Paladin build, and which stats is more beneficial.
If my question is “Should I get Paladin or other classes?” then you got the point, but we have already established that we will get Paladin, it’s just the matter of which build is better. In addition, in no way I was looking for top notch DPS that can conquer wizards or archers. I think everyone knows that coming into the Cleric class section of this game.
But seriously, what would be your suggestion? Also do you have experience on a late game Paladin? It would help more if you can provided field experience.
