I also got pretty disappointed with my STR paladin. Smite is strong only against devil/mutant/plate armor and will do horrible against anything else.
I gave up on it and made a INT paladin instead (Cleric 3 -> Paladin 3) and was very satisfied with the result. Cure lvl 15 is just a monster and Heal (yes heal) will also deal a good damage against few targets. Without any STR Smite would still deal a good damage against demons and no damage against everything else. The biggest problem was fighting flying non-demon mobs, but for everything else, Cure + Heal + Smite would do a great job.
I think the biggest issue with STR paladins is that the whole cleric tree lacks a lot in physical damaging skills. If you go paladin, you most likely don’t go monk, and if you don’t go monk, you lose the best physical skills of cleric tree. The only physical skill you can get outside the monk tree is Carve Attack, and it’s not really good enough just having Carve Attack + Smite.
All that being said, getting Conviction really changes your life as a Paladin. From my experience as a INT Paladin, Conviction + Smite is a good combo even without STR… But Conviction + Cure… Oh boy… And you can use Resist Elements for the additional debuff… This combo will really obliterate bosses. The boss in the 175 dungeon would die in less than 4 seconds if he didn’t move away from Cure AoE (but he’s also weak to holy element).
I would probably say, as of now. They may add another physical class in later ranks, so that is still something to look forward to. With the way stat distribution is right now, it really looks like investing into one offensive Stat is clearly the way. I’m a fan of rolling hybrids and it saddens me a bit that the game doesn’t really reward that kind of playstyle.
As I noted on my post, going INT was very similar to what i’d call a hybrid build. Smite and Conviction still deals good damage regardless of your STR.
In terms of skills, yes I would say Paladin is one of the class options that fall under “Hybrid” I was talking more of Stat distribution - the game system rewards you better when you invest more in a particular offensive stat - either STR or INT. As a result there are more purists than those who would advocate going into both stats. While there is no wrong or right in the matter – in terms of numerical results, however, the bonuses just really tends to favor just going into one.
Like I said before, STR on a cleric is a trap. This is further pushed by the datamined changes in ktos where [blessing] gets scaling from both SPR and INT and skill level (possible for [sacrament] to get the same treatment).
[blessing] will get the following as ADDITIONAL damage should the change push through to itos.
[(SPR x 0.06) + (INT x 0.02)] x (skill lv - 1)
Do note that INT gets more bonus stats per hard stat due to rank scaling. At rank 10 that gets you 90% more INT so it more or less gives the same as SPR.
Thank you for the reply earlier. I appreciate you taking the time to address my concerns as detailed as possible. I understand you’re concerns with my timings for Priest C2.
I am however, working on the assumption, that I am working with no expectations of anything better in the later ranks (which of course would not be the case) but I am making room to consider that my likely fallback would just be focusing on the earlier classes (Priest, Cleric, Paladin, and possibly Chaplain)
I know the more usual path would be to go for Cleric 1 > Priest 3 > Paladin 3. But I couldn’t let go of Cleric 2 simply because of the Healing and the Damage it contributes with Holy property on the flipside. If there are good changes to Blessing which are INT/ SPR related, more reason for me to press on.
I have to retract my hypothesis on the restoration part. I think the amount of tests and test data I do isn’t enough to give a full picture of how much exactly does restoration increase in healing.
Conducted another small field test on restoration, restoration levels, and heal. The sample size isn’t really big enough but it does give a general rough idea how much heals per level of restoration. Spent a bit of TP on a skill reset, It does give some insights (to prove my own hypothesis wrong yay)
Here is a clip of the heal tests before the grinding parties kill off my poor specimen err. fauna test buddy.
The heal amount fluctuates quite a bit, and this time round it doesn’t seem like it is following the restoration levels at all with spikes on low restoration levels and low heals on higher restoration levels. The % increase might involve having a static % increase based off the int heal amount? (Need a stat reset potion to really find out though…)
Let me dissect the clip more and get more data first. Any one has a krivis in Telsiai? Shouted for test buddies but no one reply me in shouts.
okay thx alot neko. This is what i think for CON mod ( yea i still think of this ). Its not from Skill LVL but from CLERIC CIRCLE. your CON mod stay in 1.65 from LVL 1 neko. What are common from you and wurm are that cleric circle wich is 2. And mine are only cleric circle 1. I hope the CON mod are correct will do heal testing in cleric circle 1. And lets see the different, and pls test circle 3 cleric if you can
About resto bonus are still a mistery for me lol. later try use LVL 1 and LVL 2 heal using the divine might.
I was able to test with a Krivis today. I didn’t get any screenshots however from my tests Aukuras (or HP Recovery) does not affect the heal tiles (didn’t test with Mass Heal).
His Aukuras was increasing HP Recovery in 75ish and my Restoration 115ish, so if HP Recovery affected we should see a considerable increase, however all I could see was maybe 50~100, but I do believe was just my heal tiles oscilating a bit from what I’m used to see.
The next theory could be related to Restoration skill level, however that would require a Skill Pot Reset to try it out.
So is STR Paladin (Cleric 2 - Diev 1 - Paladin 3 - Oracle/PD) that bad? I keep seeing Smite + Conviction STR-less is still almost on par with full STR. If that is true, then the class balancing has some serious issues.
It’s hard to believe that STR is that bad. Same as INT it does get the 10% rank scaling as well. So I imagine even though at the current level cap of 280 STR-less Smite can deal almost as much damage as full STR build, full STR will eventually scale higher and better than STR-less build.
Also Barrier for sale is disgusting. Basically taking a huge chunk of incentive away (for those who doesn’t want to just make a pally to sell scroll anyway) from a class that’s already in a messy state. They should either remove Barrier from sale OR revamp the whole class.
Currently Paladin, in relation with other classes, just doesn’t feel as fluid. For example:
Contradicting Builds:
This on its own is variety, which is great, but then you have problem number two:
If you go STR, you get contradicted by a whole lot of other INT scaling classes. Worst of all, full STR doesn’t even pull you that far ahead of STR-less builds. Eg, SMITE, CARVE, these skills do really well even without STR. Also worth mentioning that Diev 1 - Paladin 3 is the most natural and smoothest class progression wise. Carve and Smite scales on STR, making it a great STR variant. Or it should have been.
If you go INT, you have the chance of getting screwed by future progression (when max stats scale up to the point where base damage is insignificant, hence weak Smite/Carve). But right now we don’t even know what IMC envision with this class. Plus Paladin doesn’t scale with INT. So if you go INT, it’s like you are taking Paladin as a filler class, you just want specific skills that fit into your INT build (Barrier, Restoration, etc), except this is a Paladin Circle 3 that starts from Rank 4 (competing with Rank 6 & 7 classes).
Then you throw in Pardoner Barrier Scroll selling, might as well just make Paladin when you want to go for the merchant route. Might as well just rename Paladin to Merchant. Because let’s be honest, you take Paladin 3 because you want Barrier, and it sucks for this to happen when you actually want to build a proper Paladin, not the one sitting at town selling scrolls.
Well, even with all the above issues, I will still continue forward on the STR Paladin path, because I have hope that IMC will eventually fix its problems, and also because I love the Paladin class,
actualy this is what i and nekorin found in testing heal. Only initial HP recov are added to heal power. And with restoration will make HP recov x2 + INT scale x2 to heal LVL 10 (Neko) power, And only HP recox x1,5 + INT sclae x1,5 for Heal LVL 5 (mine). There is a little different with resto LVL 2 (mine) and LVL 5 (Neko) for heal LVL 10.
For Mass Heal LVL 5 i got the same value from my formula. But its need more testing
When you step into Paladin you need to understand that you’re not a full DPS class in the first place.
If you want to take a DPS class like Sadhu, you can, but that’s a completely different way of playing your character because you’re losing on Paladin’s supportiveness.
Going INT on a Paladin doesn’t cripple you away from your support skills.
The problem with STR Paladin is both the lack of STR skills and the scaling on the existing ones. Let’s compare STR and INT builds:
Considering a single target enemy, 200 STR vs 200 INT dps with lv 15 Smite vs lv 15 Cure:
Cure:
1 cast of Cure within 26 seconds, 40 hits.
Cure scales twice with INT so 400 + 31 (base) damage per hit (plus gear).
Total Damage ove 26 seconds: 431 * 40 = 17240
Bonus: Double damage against holy weakness mobs.
Bonus Damage: 34.4k
Smite:
6 casts of Smite within 26 seconds (probably less because of animation + positioning), 6 hits. 1 STR adds 1 damage so 200 + 1771 (base) damage per hit.
Total Damage over 26 seconds: 11826
Bonus: Tripple damage against demon/mutant mobs.
Bonus Damage: 35.4k
Usually demon/mutant mobs are also weak to holy, therefore, both skills do around the same damage with their respective builds.
Of course, that comparison is flawed in many aspects because they’re two very different skills. But there’s one crucial thing we are missing: INT builds should also get smite! For a STR build, getting Cure is a complete waste because 80% of the skill’s damage comes from INT alone.
So with an INT build, you have the additional unfair advantage of Smite:
6 casts of Smite within 26 seconds with 1771 (base) damage per hit.
Total Damage over 26 seconds: 10626
Bonus: Tripple damage against demon/mutant mobs.
Bonus Damage: 31.8k
And Ta da~! Your total DPS is almost double now.
But then you say "But wait, you’re forgetting Carve Attack for the STR build!"
But then I say “Well I’m also forgetting Heal for the INT build…”
Considering a single target enemy, 200 STR vs 200 INT dps with lv 15 Heal vs lv 5 Carve Attack:
Heal:
2 cast of Heal within 34 seconds, 30 hits.
Heal scales twice with INT so 400 + 147 (base) damage per hit (plus gear).
Total Damage over 34 seconds: 16.4k
Bonus: Double damage against holy weakness mobs.
Bonus Damage: 32.8k
Carve Attack:
6 casts of Carve Attack within 30 seconds (probably less because of animation + positioning), 30 hits total. 1 STR adds 1 damage so 200 + 178 (base) damage per hit.
Total Damage over 34 seconds: 11340
Bonus: +3k damage against Plants
Bonus Damage: 14.3k
Of course, yet another unfair comparison. Mobs don’t usually step on ALL heal squares. And carve attack makes it a lot easier to hit a single mob than making him chase you around to step on the heal squares…
But that’s just to give you a very very crude idea of the builds DPS comparison.
I’m not really making a very accurate calculation there for many reasons. First, I didn’t make the damage per second, secondly (no pun intended), I didn’t consider all the other effects and actual mechanics of the skills.
BUT OKEY
What else?
Well…
INT build will do A LOT better on healing with level 15 heal and INT boost to heals. It’s not even necessary putting any points into Restoration at all because your heals will be just… lol. But personally I leveled up Restoration and keep my heal remove damage attribute off to heal bomb enemies even during dungeons so I don’t lose that extra DPS (yeah i know, screw the party). There will still be some heal squares on the ground that will most likely heal 30% of party member’s hp on each square… If things get tough you enable again the attribute and give up on the DPS.
For STR builds, Restoration is highly recommended (at least level 1) because you probably have heal level 10 instead of 15 and each square doesn’t heal that much. That aside, the STR build will also get Laima statue that’s kind of “meh” in my opinion. Zemyna/Vakarine are complete garbage in my opinion. Don’t get me wrong, Heal 10 in STR build with Restoration isn’t lacking, but when you have Heal 15 + INT build + Restoration you can just give up on the remove damage attribute, deal some damage, and still heal the party.
Now, DPS and healing aside, you can actually “feel” better with INT build. Heal/Cure doesn’t really hit in AoE but they do have a nice area that Carve Attack completely lacks of. Making mobs just chase you and step into the Cure square is much safer and easier than standing still to attack them with your little knife (esp considering all the things like monsters knock back that i’m not even mentioning here).
To be honest, Carve Attack just feels terrible to use. It’s an extremely short range with a relatively long attack animation and the damage isn’t instant (if the mob moves even just a little during your animation you’ll miss a couple hits). It also consumes a lot of SP (if you compare to Cure).
That’s true, if they are to release rank 8, 9, 10, your Smite lvl 15 with INT will eventually have it’s base damage fall off and not be as useful anymore. But Cure and Heal with INT will always scale much better than Smite and Carve Attack with STR.
Barrier itself is disgusting. It’s only useful in Earth Tower. And the magical damage attribute is a bad joke.
TL;DR
Overall, INT build will do better because you have 3 damage skills in comparison of just 2 in STR build. INT build will have better healing than STR. INT builds get a better feeling of “AoE” damage. STR will only get Laime Statue to compensate for all that.
Your points are true, but that’s exactly the problem. They shouldn’t be. Right now it is just punishing players who build Paladin the way the game encourage us to (Smite and Conviction both STR based and no INT scaling at all). Don’t you find it weird that INT, which goes against Paladin skill scaling wise, performs even better than STR which actually scales its skills?
If they love INT build so much, they should have either: 1. Make Smite and Conviction scale on INT, or 2. Make Smite and Conviction have low base damage (so INT builds don’t get to abuse it), and increase STR scaling, like giving double stat scaling on Cure. Now that’s healthier and rewarding.
The problem isn’t Paladin not having top notch DPS, but the build within the class itself. I hate to say it but it’s just like someone said, STR is a trap. So now you either continue playing a sub-par STR Paladin because you got misled and invested a lot of STR, or you delete and remake the character and waste all the time spent, OR you spend some money to reset your stats.
Very well done.
On scroll selling, I generally think the whole system of selling skills are bad. It invalidates the needs for certain classes. They promote team play and yet they put in a system that contradicts that. Imagine how valuable a cleric class would be if no such system exist, and how party play will thrive even more so. You want to level fast and got a build that relies on Blessing, Sacrament, etc, better socialize party up with a good priest buddy!
So Barrier is useless? This is just great. Why get Paladin at all then? Basically a class that gets out-shined by every other options. Even a Diev 3 has better DPS, utility, and support than Paladin (INT build as well, the pattern is clear).
Restoration - Gets replaced by HP Potions.
SP Regen Attribute - Gets replaced by SP Potions.
Barrier -Useless outside Earth Tower and there’s even Barrier scroll.
Smite & Conviction - Gets out-damaged by other options.
Resist Element - I guess we still have this one, even then it’s just shouting mediocrity.
Why would I even want to make this class. I mean sure, INT Paladin is stronger than STR Paladin, but a INT Diev 3 can out-shine this, why go Paladin at all?
To be honest, I’m more mad about the time and effort wasted more than anything. I wish important, practical info/disclaimer like this should be shown in this info compilation. Then maybe potential paladin players will reconsider before stepping into this vortex of mess that sucks in everything you love about Paladin as a theme and throw them at your face.
Here’s some really screwed up info if the [blessing] patch rolls out as is.
My cleric1-priest3-pardoner2-krivis auto attack his way to rank 7. 0 additional STR and INT. Everything went to 100 total CON and the rest went into SPR (200 total I think cuz I haven’t spent any stat points since hitting that). If this patch rolls out as is my [blessing] will be doing around 338 damage per hit. Cafrisun and [sacrament] automatically makes me do 3x that per auto attack. So my scaling with SPR per auto attack is 252% per swing vs 100% STR per swing.
How does this relate to paladins? You can simply buy the buffs and get the same effect regardless of your stat build.
Perhaps the reason why I didn’t feel this problem as strongly is because I opted for a very strange hybrid experiment. I decided that in making my own Paladin, to actually try to make it as well-rounded as possible to test out: Meaning that I generally leveled. Ofcourse, this meant I did not invest in Dex which equates to no crits. However, because I knew how Heal and Cure scaled to C2.
So far though, if the additional damage to STR and INT are applicable, you should benefit better from going more hybrid- Or rather, you’d naturally get more yield out of it. But with how INT scales and the nature of multi-hit, overall you’d get a better yield currently with INT. I don’t feel quite gimped though. Level 10 (11) Cure and Smite give me a strong uptime on damage on what I can do especially to things that can’t stand Holy damage.
It’s almost as though anything physical in this game is gimped as hell. But I wouldn’t consider Heal to be damaging, because in most cases you’ll be along with a party and thus have your Heal Damage turned off so they could actually heal and not cry. However I do feel as though Paladins are sort of odd: They’re a utilitarian/defensive class, meaning they were never designed to be pure DPS in the first place. Yet they have all these STR-scaling abilities, and it’s core still supports INT and Elemental based attacks.
I haven’t tested it yet, but how does property attacks interract with spells? They should stack, like in the case of Arde to most, right?
