Tree of Savior Forum

Obsolete Class skills + stats (scaling problem - ADDITIVE scaling is bad)

I’m only going to talk about class skills + stats, not exp/questing/linear/grinding here but I would like to mention that it’s disappointing only having 1-2 maps of a certain level (feels way too linear).

Tree of Savior boasts a wide variety of classes and combinations and I love the freedom to create/customise your builds - going support (green), utility (yellow), damage (red), tank (blue).

Positive Feedback:

  1. I love how diverse each class can be and how alot of utility is bound to specific classes (eg. Chronomancer, Linker, Dievedirby).

  2. Making elements and weapon/armor/flying type matter is awesome! Work further on this to provide larger disparities between classes! Classes that show clear strengths and weaknesses is ++++ for design.

However, there are two main problems with the current system:

  1. Many class skills get overshadowed by later class skills purely by base damage. Eg. Warrior/Wizard abilities scale up to level 15 at Rank 3 but only provide 500 base damage compared to 1,500 damage of Barbarian/Elementalist. There is a lack of incentive to go down early classes to unlock their 3rd circle abilities AND investment into earlier abilities feel obsolete at later levels. There is alot of work to be done to bring up the numbers of all class skills so that they scale well into their Level 15’s. It is important to note that creating clear strengths and weaknesses of skills are important but it doesn’t have to be so binary in terms of damage vs cooldown. Work on emphasising elemental damage/synergy with other classes as a pay off rather than just more damage skills.

  2. The whole additive system is terrible. Stats that provide multiplicative benefits is crucial otherwise stats is pretty meaningless compared to skill level + weapon.

End of rant. I really want this game to do well.

9 Likes

I am agree with you, a lot of skills are unbalanced, too high flat dammaged, or too low flat dammaged.
Skills dammaged have to be non linear by level, with a unique flat dammaged (by level) and unique INT coefficient (by level) to balanced them, Wizzard circle 3 need to have their dammaged as good in pve as Pyromancer circle 2.
And if Wizzard skills are obsolete at max lv5 for a Pyromancer circle 2, these skills have to be the base of the gameplay of a Wizzard circle 3 with these skills lv15.

Strongly agreed. Made a similar post regarding this. You have a game with 80 classes where there could be near limitless possibilities for creative builds and combinations, but that can be greatly overshadowed if the later classes are always stronger. It brings it down to maybe 10 or so classes based on what people choose for their last few ranks.

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I think now it’s up to the person. Classes being overshadowed due to another one being stronger always happen and that’s pretty normal. The people who usually just make creative builds and/or use the least use classes are those people who are really willed to experiment and be unique or different from the others. I get what the OP is saying though, so I partially agree.

As for 2, yeah they need to tweak it some more.

I think that it’s too early to said that a certain class is weak etc. Not really everyone had reached rank 6 yet, some of the C3 is merely preparing for the late game.

For example, wizard C3. You have an OP +50% magic damage quick cast, which other sub class will not have. Of course it’s understandable that your other skill will be pale in comparison to other class. But when you combine the quick cast with elementalist’s insane damage, you have a build with super high burst damage.

Also, some people doesn’t understand much on how the skill works yet. In wizard C3, there are actually so much combo to choose from, but many players just seems not to understand.
Lethargy->Earthquake (double damage or extra 50% damage)
Sleep->magic missle(extra bounce)->magic bullet(extra 50%)
You can combine quick cast with the above combo for more devastating effect.

I’m not sure how this would compare to other class though. But I do agree the cooldown of the weaker skills should be shorter to compensate for the weak damage.

1 Like

[quote=“rehtej_y, post:4, topic:97992”]
I think now it’s up to the person. Classes being overshadowed due to another one being stronger always happen and that’s pretty normal.
[/quote]This happens when the classes are “evolutive” (Class 1 evolves to class 2). Here the thing is different. The classes arent complete evolutives.
For example, you can go all the way of Swordsman C3. But swordsman C3 skills at lvl 15 are ALL inferior to Higlander C1 at lvl 5, and higlander C1 is a rank 2 class, while swordsman C3 is a rank 3.

This remove part of the point of going C3 with some classes. If the values were in %, this difference in power could be reduced. So a Swordsman C3 is not weaker than most C1 classes from rank 2+.

Another issue is that being additive makes the skill worse as the base stat increase. +100 damage when you have 100 atk is an 100% damage increase. But when you have 500 atk, it’s just 20% damage increase.

Since the point of the class system is to allwos people to build their classe combination, making a classe obviously stronger than other don’t seems nice. Someone shouldn’t be weaker than other because he maxed lower rank classes. Focus on a class should be praized, not penalized. So an Swordsman C3 shouldn’t be automatically weaker than Swordsman C1 Highlander C2.

3 Likes

The biggest issue I have with C3 starter classes so far is the lack of versatility. Of course raw damage output is lower too, but, setting up a late game character will sometimes have these sacrifices, so I’m okay with it so long as the payoff is worth it.

Consider the C3 Wizard example above. And let’s compare a Cryolinker and a Pyrokino.

At C1 they all start as Wizard and have access to 5 skills, 2 of which are attacks, 2 of which are debuffs, 1 of which is a buff.
At C2 the Wizard gains one single skill in the form of a self buff where as the Cryomancer gains access to 4 attack skills with fun spins and the Pyromancer gains 4 attack skills and a buff. Both the Cryomancer and the Pyromancer now have a total of 6 potential attack skills to cycle through based on circumstances where the wizard has a total of 2 attack skills. At C3 the Wizard gains an attack skill and an amazing buff. At C3 the Pyromancer picks Linker and gains 4 skills and, while only one deals direct damage on disconnect, their versatility jumps through the roof. The Pyrolinker is able to party well with useful buffs and debuffs and still have a grand total of 7 total attack skills to select from, 8 if you count Joint Penalty. The Cryomancer chose Psychokino as their third rank and it opened up 4 skills, 2 of which are attacks and 2 of which are versatility skills. In this sense the Cryokino has also opened up additional self-combos such as Ice Wall and Swap etc.

C3 Wizard: 8 skills (3 hits)
Pyrolinker: 14 skills (7-8 hits)
Cryokino: 13 skills (7-8 hits)

The end result is the C3 Wizard has a much harder time progressing because he lacks much of what makes a new class shine. The C3 doesn’t get 4-5 additional skills in C2 like a new class election does but instead they get a single skill at C2. At C3 they get a single Hit type skill and a great buff but that’s only 2 skills compared to the allure of 4-5 fresh skills of a rank 3 class election. What you end up with 2-3 attack skills and a metric ton of auto attacking as you don’t really offer a lot more to a party.

I understand that moving up in the ranks should be viewed as a “specialist” profession of sorts, where instead of being a jack of all trades you elect to master one… but there often isn’t enough bonus in skill ranks from lv6-10, or 11-15, to warrant the dedication to C3. At least with the starter classes.

I’ve tried to consider what could be a good solution to this problem… at first I thought just make the skill scaling much much higher when jumping tiers. Like from lv1-5 lets say you’re getting a 50 damage bonus per level. In the current model at lv6-10 you’d also be getting a 50 point bonus and from 11-15 you would be getting a 50 point bonus as well. If you were to take the damage though and scale it to your tier then lets say at 1-5 (C1) you get a 50 damage bonus per level, but, at lv6-10 (C2) you’d get 100 damage bonus per rank, and lv11-15 (C3) you’d get 150 or 200 bonus per level. As an example I can see it’d obviously need tweaked but the idea was that progressive and tiered bonuses rather than flat bonuses across all levels. But then I considered that there are items that give bonus to skill levels and it’d seem unfair to boost the level of a skill via equipment and gain access to the perks that someone had to earn by giving up a class election in their advancements.

I think a nice solution would be to give a passive skill bonus to all classes, like a C2 or C3 bonus that passively boosts all skills in some way, in addition to granting at least the starting classes a couple more skills by the time they master C3 to help make up for the lack of versatility. I imagine the C2 Wizard passive would be something like “Insight; dedication to wizardly ways has granted you a 20% bonus to all damage and duration lengths of Wizard skills” or whatever (applying only to Wizard, not wizard subtypes like pryomancer, sorcerer, etc I’m sure the wording would be proper in whatever they’d come up with lol).

At least in my head it’d work out well lol It’d still need a few more skills though for the starter classes as the versatility would still be lacking as they have less skills to cast overall and even less that are useful in most engagements.

Alternatively, just reduce the skill CD when the skill level goes above 5 or 10. That will solve all the issues Wizard C3 has (skill always on CD).

Somehow you are right, but you all should remember that the amount of EXP is something around 5 times higher than normally (1icbt). TOS is a game where you have to grind a lot with normal exp rates. In the first icbt I had to grind for around 30 hours overall to hit the level caps and to be able to get new quests and to accept even the main story quests.
So I realized that I have to grind in party most of the time at a fixed spot, where archers could use kneeling shot all the time and the others were able to use their skills while a swordsman was pulling the rest of the monsters.
At level 50 there’s the first dungeon you can enter and with lvl 80-90 there are some more different maps and instances you could enter. You just have to find them. The problem is, that most of the players are just doing the main quests and they stay on these maps for grinding, they just don’t take a look around.

They really need to work on it :frowning:

I agree. It’s rly bad, boring, skills will completely be replaced… It’s a bad concept…but at this stage I doubt they will do anything about it… It’s another one of those systems that sounds awesome but feels rushed and badly designed.

@Staff_Julie this topic might be old…but the problems still exist. Could you maybe forward this to the game designer in charge?

Noted. I’m going to make a report on this today.

4 Likes

+1 for this. Getting rid of flat values and having all skills scale based on the current atack (deal 150% of your atack as poison damage, for example) is something we discussed a lot in the first cbt in august.

With the diversity ToS brings it would be awesome! Would also balance multihit with single hit skills, as they wouldn’t have the same 100% base atack added to each hit :slight_smile:

I’m pretty sure IMC knows this, as they have been changing some buffs to be % based and they got pretty popular (swift step, steady aim, running shot, etc…). Maybe they take this road to everything :smile:

Thank you Staff_Julie.

Victor_sant’s #7 comment about evolutive classes is well put.

Having to invest entire job advancements into pre-existing classes should feel meaningful and competitive at every advancement point.

Same as skill point investment into skills. Having a 30 dmg upgrade leads to players putting 1 point into all skills just to have it and not really feeling invested in empowering a specific set of skills.

It definitely will take some time to review this as it inherently changes the entire skill/stat system you have developed but I believe that it needs to be addressed nonetheless for the longevity of the game.

Great to hear that IMC wants to see ToS evolve and be the best it can. Keep it up.

I am curious how people think is an elegant solution to this outside of raw scaling?

Or would better scaling be enough?

Diablo style (actually many games).

Deals x% of your ATK as strike damage.
Deals x% of your MATK as fire damage.
Deals x% of your MATK as fire damage over y seconds or up to z hits. (fireball like)

See how succefull they were bringing early Archer classes to be useful:
Archer has swift step, a % based crit rate bonus. Ranger has steady aim, a % based damage bonus. Quarrel Shooter has running shot for % based ATK SPD and bonus damage. All this weren’t ingame in the first cbt.

Many players asked for % buffs. Offensive skills would also be much easier to balance, specially between single hit / multi hit. They wouldn’t be too strong early on, but would scale well to late game.

All skills need a certain base dmg and scale with your own damage.

1 Like

Doesn’t this just makes the difference smaller but the problem persists?

Flat values don’t scale, simple as that. There’s no way to make skills scale equally in all stages of the game unless making them purely %.

Glad to hear you at least acknowledge there is a problem.
Too many skills become obsolete the further you level, and this is not a good thing at all since it kills build diversity. %ATK/%MATK damage on all skills is a must, plain and simple.

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They are not exactly flat. Each skill will do 100% of your Atk/Matk + flat skill damage. Damage enhance attribute at max level doubles it. So at max level your skills will do 200% of your atk and 2x skill flat damage value which is exactly what you are asking for. Some skills have additional modifiers to Atk/Matk they use.