Tree of Savior Forum

Musketeer + Sapper feedback along with suggestions towards a Sapper rework

Heyo! I’d like to take the time to share some feedback with taking Sapper 3 for Musketeers.
The main purpose is to discuss my personal experiences and comparisons to Quarrel Shooter 3. What felt weaker in comparison to QS, while trying to identifying the minor struggles I had with Musketeer, and Sapper. There will also be suggestions on what I’d like to see from the Sapper rework.

At the current time my build is fixated more on identified skills that were to be utilized for a PvP setting that included zoning. https://goo.gl/eW4g8p It mainly takes the two more effective skills Broom Trap and Detonate Traps.

While this may not seem like the most optimal PvE or PvP spec. This re-specialization was an attempt to see if Sapper 3 could provide the AoE that Quarrel Shooter builds could not.

It sadly became obvious a few days into the build that my ability to farm quickly dissipated. Running Shot and Grooving Muzzle are extremely good tools to farm mobs from area to area. The high cooldowns of Sapper were very ineffective and became cumbersome. I still relied mostly on the AoE of Musketeer, utilizing Covering Fire and weaving Volleyfire’s into the rotations just like previously with Quarrel Shooter.

When compared to group play it seems like Broom Trap provides a slightly faster push for CM’s, clearing dungeons, and ET DPS checks. However the long CD’s don’t mesh entirely well and often times I found myself still auto-attacking, with everything down, that’s including Stockades, Detonation and Claymore.

For Sapper’s enhancement both major skills are at 80 enhancement, while the minor ones are at 40. While my Musketeer skills sit at 40 with the exception of covering fire at 83.

Ultimately for common bosses, your primary damage is from Musketeer, and without Running Shot paired with Grooving Muzzle your damage as a caster based Sapper is not competitive for Monarch Demon Lords. My Broom Trap was a liability at Zaura due to Monarchs being able to constantly detonate magic circles or tiles.

I’d like to use this time to emphasize Sapper desperately needs a rework with condensing like Musketeer, but an entire overhaul on the class. This portion are just some suggestions I’d like to see.

Stake Stockades - To have tile based permanence much like Deploy Pavise and more overheats. Sapper’s design should definitely have more zoning based pressure for Territory Wars. My suggestion is a 5 overheat based skill, while giving it a large uptime to remain on maps but limiting how many can be placed on a map.While an enemy is within a stockade slowing and damage should tick imitating the concepts of Barbed Wire in video game culture, being a hindrance. Much like Pavise they should have a limited hitcount before being dismantled.

Conceal - I think this should most likely imitate a 5 capped skill like Missile Hole or a 1 capped skill providing extended times and trap amount in attributes.Its utility should apply in creating the theme that Sappers are a high pressure zoning based class and enemy movement should be cognitive, tactical and cautious.

Claymore - I’m no explosive expert but seeing claymore revitalized as a mine, or at least given more overheats and charges would be a great addition. Much like to the previous stated theme, a sapper should create an environment that players should tread carefully or provide an explosive AoE experience.

Punji Stake - From most of the feedback I’ve gotten has had a lot of credibility. While the damage has been good, and mostly used as disruption/crowd control, I’ve found it to be extremely limiting. An attribute to remove the knockback is severly needed for specific content. I think Punji should be replaced with an pitfall based trap that acts as an crowd control with impact based damage. One of the things that Sapper is missing is a utility to really keep people in place and it’s something that they can definitely provide thematically.

One of the ideas that I would have wanted to provide for Territory Wars Feedback was adding the concept of falling off the Map. Most of the maps selected had narrow corridors and in our game elevation is often shown. We’re usually traversing on top of cliffs or hill like trails. While on the Galeed Plataea, there’s a segment called Pamatas Pillar near the entrance Elgos Abbey. It looks jump-able and would of allowed another point of attack while providing knock-backs intensive utility for warring and control. It something that could help skills that provide knockback like Punji shine.

Detonate Traps - Is perfect in terms of concept, it should punish magic circles and provide the utility of disrupting them. It feels extremely limited on how much it can break and the fact that it’s close range is the bane of archers. Pushing it to be a midrange grenade can allow it have attributes or scaling with how much it can shatter. While being a place-able/skill-shot it allows the player to have more control especially complimenting the long range design tree like archer. I think the attribute for flying mobs should be more universal and not something just for Detonate Traps.

Broom Trap - It is by far the most popular and most effective skill, however allowing it to hit flying mobs isn’t too huge of a power creep, when comparing it to every other AoE mage. I’d even settle for an attribute that reduces the damage on flying mobs by 20-50% but applies some debuff as consultation. Conceptually adding an attribute that converts Broom Trap to lightning based property and applying the shock status much like a bug zapper was joked about previously in discord conversations.

Collar Bomb - I cannot effectively review it but it feels like it should be some sort of projectile debuff applied to a mob that can be detonated with Detonate Traps to apply the damage from both the skills for synergy. Instead of on contact detonation, tweaking the skill to be on execution of the target can allow increased skill modifiers due to it being a condition. It allows a stradegy for the player to choose whom to apply it to and creates a focus fire opportunity for group and solo play.

Spike Shooter - It’s just like it doesn’t exist. Everyone tells me no and the few people that gave me their feedback with 1 point in it, well regret that choice. I think it’s a good opportunity to create a pitfall trap, attributes that can poison, bleeding or create status ailments. Maybe switching Punji to circle 3 could be another option as well replacing this. There’s a lot of opportunities for this skill slot.

If I were to make any recommendations if you’d like to pursue Sapper in its current state with Musketeer, is fixate it around attack speed, Grooving Muzzle and Covering Fire. (I will be testing this out before swapping back to Quarrel Shooter to confirm and write a finalized review. My recommendations are still Quarrel Shooter.)

In short, Sapper had a lot of downtime that felt like it didn’t provide the AoE uptimes I sought. Although I have not explored some of the other skills after hearing feedback from previous Sappers. Their opinions detoured me away from the other skills and their recommendations paved out this skill set. If you have feedback about Sapper I’d love to hear it, I’ll be using skill potions to play around before resetting…
The dream was to stealth in and drop a broom trap with Froster Lords in Territory Wars. o 3ob it hasn’t been met yet.

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Excellent suggestion. In addition to becoming a second area skill, it would be more useful for this skill.

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Sapper has 2 main problems, the dmg is poor (specially in tbl, they do almost nothing) and the consistency of skills is weird.
The only decent skill is broom trap (with the limitations you stated). Can be improved with rogues capture.
Punji is also good but the placement is weird and slow. With capture can be cast from far away (amazing for TBL).
Claymores should me mines, or have a wider and consistend range.
Agree with detonate traps. Also in tbl when you detonate something it seems to not do any dmg, ie: when you detonate a safety with someone inside (idk if the dmg is so nerfed in tbl that is almost nothing or it really dont do any dmg).
Conceal, stockades,collar bomb and spike shooter desperately need a rework cause they are useless af.

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Yeah I like the concept that hidden traps should be viewed as a reward for investment. It fits the theme of expertise. I’d want to see it at 2 and place more rewarding traps or attributes at circle 3 to support it.

your post is really good \o/
I really hope Collar Bomb and Spike Shooter can get some loving. :tired:

TBL feedbacks pretty important, especially for interactions and refining them.
Yeah I’ve noticed that interaction with safety wall, I think that might have to do with the safety wall blocking the damage but being destroyed as a result. I can test it later some more.
Magic circle interaction doesn’t really feel entirely fleshed out yet on a PvP basis. But the new shatter mechanics on Monarchs really feel like that’s how it should be. An answer to Safety Zones, bubbles, hailstorms, Stop, structures, etc.

Sad part is that sapper mostly adds utility on tbl, all of the skills does almost nothing to well geared people, even with high trans/refine due to dmg reduction and low %dmg.

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I don’t think it’s reasonable to balance specific class synergy, it’s more important that it happens sort of organically.

Sapper has no inherent synergy with musketeer, people tend to pick it up to fill a perceived gap in AoE DPS as far as PVE content is concerned, or they pick it up for a few utility skills in PVP/GVG. The problem with this however is actually that it suffers from very long CDs as you mentioned–just like musketeer. It means you are sitting and twiddling your thumbs for quite a long time while all your high SFR skills are on CD.

The problem is that the non-broom trap skills on sapper are all conditional–they all require something to happen for the damage to be triggered. That isn’t always a bad thing, but it is if you want high sustained DPS for PVE or high burst DPS/utility for PVP. Broom trap and detonate are both exceptional skills, but the rest of the kit is lacking and almost every other skill should be reworked to have no strings attached to their common use.

The suggestions on each skill are a little wonky but ultimately they should just do more damage or do X thing, where X is either high damage or a good CC, or maybe mix the two in reasonable amounts.

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I’d like to see Sapper using some new traps, the idea of Spike Shooter being turned into a turret is part of what I like from the Scout class in Continent of the Ninth:

  • He has 2 turret skills, 1 shots straight line aiming to the enemy, the other shot spikes around in all directions
  • 2 mines, freezing and flame which chase the enemy
  • 1 flaming wheel that also chases the enemy but doesnt explode, it does damage for all the time is close to the enemie
  • Also throws a grenade, makes an explotion around him, sets a slowing aoe debuff wave thing
  • Also “Fire Support” his main skill which turns an area into a bombing zone

Is pretty defensive but at same time it knows how to deal with enemies invading its territory, Sapper could learn a thing or 2 from this class and how it deas faster damage compared to the extremely slow claymore, punji, spike shooter, etc

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turrets are a fantastic idea for sapper. the other thing i’d love to see would be some sort of ‘wall’ skill. like having a wall of sandbags around you that prevent you from moving but absorb a certain number of attacks similar to quarrel’s pavise shield. they could have an attribute at c3 that makes it so when you enter kneeling-shot and bazooka stances the skill automatically activates, but with a reduced number of blocks - and exiting kneeling/bazooka would remove the remaining block count if any are left.

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That sounds like a great idea, making sapper more like a warfare class

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I think the reason why the Sapper class has no overheats on their skills is because of the already existing interaction between Rogue Capture skill and Sapper traps.

Consider what would happen if you have even just Capture 5 and 3 overheat. Given the firepower of some of the traps individually, this may, in the eyes of the developers, cause balancing difficulties in the long run. The way I see it is that the sapper skills already have high firepower for their rank availability. The only skills I know that have the amount of firepower of Claymore 10 and Punji 5 have at that level are the Peltast skills. Even then, those skills not only need Murmillo to keep competitive but cannot avail of the benefit capture provides. One may argue using Wizards as an example, but I’d rather avoid that discussion for now if you’ll let me.

Now, I’m not against buffing Sappers, but the Capture interaction needs to be taken into account. Honestly, cutting cd’s by say 20-30% (which is between 8-12s depending on the skill) should give the traps the edge they need to be deployed competitively. There may be other means for improving them, though, but this is the only one that comes to mind right now.

Edit: Separating the detonation trigger of the Claymore from the skill deployment trigger should be a somewhat understated but feasible buff to the Claymore skill. As it stands, when placing a Claymore, pressing Claymore again detonates the Claymore. Having separate buttons for the Claymore deployment and detonation should be a substantial boost to its utility.

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That’s an extremely valid point. Capture is definitely something that they’ll have to look at. Maybe that’s why the archer rework is so segmented, whether it’s individual design and coding, timing or specifically minor things they want to address prior to a Rogue or Sapper rework. However if one skill interaction is the breaking point on why Sapper remains the way it is then that clearly is something that shouldn’t juristic a entire skill tree. Capture is one of the coolest skills out there though.

I really agree that there should be more flexability with Claymore, they’ve given us free skills for summoning they probably could do something like that.

My main statement is the array of skills it has is usually useless. Granted that every class has the skills that get outshone but virtually Collar Bomb and Spike Shooter are almost never used. Stockades are extremely weak especially if you compare it to a Pavise, especially in the utility department. There’s no optional turn off knockback for Punji which is a surprise because that’s a common theme in this game so using it slows things down, when grouping mobs.It honestly needs some loving.

Regardless, it was just a documented experience and they’re just some opinions of what my personal enjoyment. Pyromancer is the main example of a great overhaul. Maybe we’ll see something pretty nifty for sapper or some cool buffs.

Thank you for the reply \o/ Ima play around with Rogue again with the next resets for Archers, maybe just do backstab memes :tired:

I think though that Punji Stakes is supposed to naturally be a knockback skill. I’m guessing it was designed to be used with skills like the Archer’s Kneeling Shot and Cannoneer’s Bazooka as a way to keep the enemy’s distance. Bu you’re right, of course, the option to remove it’s knockback shouldn’t be withheld since it allows players to decide what to do with the trap.

It may, in fact, be much better to make the punji stakes work like the QS’s Pavise: keeping the enemy back by drawing their aggro and then damaging them everytime they attack the stake. This way, extra overheats would not be a problem since it changes the nature of Punji Stake’s damage delivery.

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I think Sapper should be reworked more centered around Detonate Trap. Like @Csiko has mentioned, each trap should be triggered by X and if it fails, boil down to simple Detonate it with reduced damage/denied CC sort of.

I still like the fact you can place and active Claymore whenever you like it but maybe place it like a mine with Overheat as mentioned, but with an attribute in Detonate Trap, so when you active, will work as it do right now, but more Claymores positioned in place.

I kind of like the Collar bomb you imagined. I felt that Collar Bomb could be reworked into a throw-like skill. With an attribute like “Time Bomb” increasing the time it takes to explode but increasing the damage, but with the Ranger tweaks, I don’t know if its possible… The other idea I had for it, the sapper would randomly throw TNTs were they would explode after a short time and maybe attach to monster if they walk into it. Each level would increase the number of TNTs.

I honestly would have a entirely new Punji Stake, Turning it into either a wall (Where you can jump over) for both player and enemy, were it would damage enemies in contact or remove it and replace with a “Pit Fall Spikes” kind of. A passable terain where it does damage enemies and maybe slow them with an attribute.

Spike Shooter for surely, a Turret. It has the CD for it already.

I can’t give any solid idea for pvp in general. I don’t like it much. My ideas may be far too weak or overpowered for pvp. But I would love if they show the true power spike of Sapper in the last circle to maybe avoid Sapper being too powerful in pvp content.

I hate Capture btw. To maximaze current Sapper, feels like you need to be Rogue with Capture.

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If only they’d make an Engineer class. I can imagine it as the Murmillo of Archer classes, boosting abilities of circle-type, ground-type and installation-type abilities while adding a few of its own. Though I’m not quite sure which Archer classes would greatly benefit from this. Sapper is a given. maybe Wugushi? Idk.

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