Musings on iToS Balance - Part I of V - A hollow game of numbers

[Queue]

Exactly, but we also have to consider that our great and grand ideas may fall on deaf ears to the developers even with the Staff and GMs backing or are in some form of agreement. The developers are humans too, and have their limitations on how well they can program and code a game.

Of course, but we can’t effect that. The most we can do is present the best possible ideas we have. It’s good to realise limitations though.

This is their game and how they make their money. Money talks, realistically we also have to pitch to them how our ideas will bring more potential players/customers to indulge towards paying on their cash shop, bringing in new blood as old players get bored/dissatisfied and leave.

More players is more money, TOS has been in development too long to be abandoned, especially considering its success in Japan. They’re expanding they’re development team, developing a mobile version, and investing in merchandise. These are not the signs of a company abandoning a product. My point is, unless IMC is entirely ignorant to everything gaming related, investing in the game would give them more money in the long term.

A good start as they’re working on would be stabilizing the game and server performance as a first agenda. players can only take so much abuse before they pack up and leave in droves. Once they get that taken care of, we can hope in that the future content and patches they bring doesn’t break the game even more( both physically and balance wise.)

Absolutely, this is most likely one of the reasons for slow content development. The optimisation patch is a sign of what they’re capable of, I hope they continue with it.

As I said in my last post, I fully believe in a complete restructure of this entire game. We already have several mechanics and features in the game that are mostly abandoned and/or half-baked ( i.e some early game content, and Lodge customization for one.) that could be cut out with no real consequence in the grand scheme of things. The balance can possibly get a lot worse as new content is release, so a better re-handling of earlier content to allow a smoother transition into later and end content would be welcomed.

IMC is already rebalancing classes and stats, they’re clearly not opposed to changing fundamental features. Once again, I agree with you. There are many many major changes that need to happen. I hope IMC listens to the feedback and doesn’t shy away from changing whole development design philosophy.

[10293846239]

I believe a complete restructure is very unlikely unless they are willing to take the game down like Square Enix did and rebuild from the ground up.

[Queue]

I’d argue that core balance problems will be addressed. The upcoming stat change, the continuous skill rebalancing, and the new game changing items, are or will be attempts at fixing the underlying problems. Many features don’t need to be rebuilt, but just added to. @skobsidian45’s example of the Lodge is the kind of feature I’m talking about. There’s nothing really wrong with it, it just needs more done to it to make it an actual feature you’d want to spend time and money on. The potential is all there, a lot of the ideas behind TOS were fantastic, the problem was implementation.

[skobsidian45]

Of course, an entire rebuilding of the game is extremely unlikely.
Square Enix is an accomplished AAA game developer and publisher. IMC sadly doesn’t get that budget.

The only thing we can hope is that the changes and content they add doesn’t end up harming the game more. Balance is important but not exactly needed in perfection. A lot of good games are not exactly the best exemplar of balance. Good well thought out game mechanics will trump out a good number of imbalances. Huge glaring balance problems can be detrimental and railroads a game’s pacing and development. An example would be the Transcendence system…an entire late and end game based around how many Trans. levels you can stack on your gear. Good Stat and Class building be damned.

but in the end, if the core game is fun. it is worth playing. Isn’t that why some/most of us are here in the first place?

[Queue]

The key is balance and variance. TOS’s core did a very good job with variance, and the initial idea of balance as well. The different armour types, all of the different classes, item differences like Rods or Staffs, 1H Spears or 2H Spears, so many different solid concepts. The classes generally play differently and focus on different roles, though generally a role in TOS is different kinds of damage opposed to something like tanking. All of these things aid in having a varied unique experience. It’s great when there’s a post of someone trying to figure out all of their options. Melee or Ranged? PATK or MATK? Which starting class? Which long term role and build? Which classes that take you there? There is so much to consider, and that’s fantastic. TOS’s core supports all the different varieties of gameplay. The system isn’t perfect, but it’s great and leagues ahead of many other MMO’s. It’s part of the reason TOS was and continues to be so popular, it gives players so much choice, so many options in different kinds of play styles and builds.

The part that really hurts TOS is balance. Bad balance ruins the variety that TOS has so much potential with. Suddenly so many different builds and potential experiences, the variety that is so important, is completely removed. Meta builds, unbalanced items, stats that are just simply worse, they all force players to make decisions, and worse ruin builds that players have already made. When it comes to gameplay IMC has to focus on balance, and they know this. They know that after game stability, balance is one of the biggest issues. There are plenty more problems like lack of end game, (though part of this is because the game is far from finished), repetitive dailies, and organisational problems like AFK farming, but balance remains one of the most important because it effects everything. Very good point on railroading, looking at you Agny and Five Hammer and it’s a perfect example of all of this.

When variance suffers, then balance turns into 2 stats: Damage and Survivability. When balance suffers, varied gameplay turns into a few meta builds and just generally frustrating game mechanics. Balance needs to be addressed first and quickly or else you’ll have exactly what happened with R8 happen again. R7 was unbalanced, so the issues compounded and R8 was unbalanced. This is core game design and the ‘philosophy’ approaching how they want everything scale, how items and monsters progress, how hard working and veteran players are rewarded for their efforts while new players still have a good chance to compete.

I want to go more in depth on actual solutions but I’m very interested to see what more @Nekorin has to say in the multi part series, so we should perhaps hold off for now at least.

[Nekorin]

This is the number one issue I consistently see with suggestion threads and ideas. EVERYTHING ties together, and changing one aspect effects everything. All suggestions have to take this into account to actually be considered.

(@Nekorin’s post isn’t an example of this though. )

EDIT: I actually really want to emphasise my point. How are the developers supposed to implement half thought out ideas? How are the Staff supposed to communicate ideas that have fundamental problems? Suggestions are generally made with the best intentions which is great, but when the suggestions themselves introduce new problems they can’t, and will never be added. As a community we need to educate ourselves on these things, but most of all, we need to constructively help each other and flush out each others ideas. This means admitting the ideas we present have flaws and openly adjusting them to perfection.

Absolutely second this. Balancing things isn’t as simple as nerfing/adding numbers. Everything is interconnected, one change will ripple down to others. Just like adding 1 Agny Necklace creates so many repercussions, from simple helping pyro become viable to entire meta shifts.

We need to help each other in pointing out the flaws in our suggestions and polishing them up so that they become good solutions. An active, constructive community gives the devs more reason to improve and provide a better game, better service.

No one likes to serve customers who are constantly bashing them.

@Queue feel free to discuss, I’m slow in my series don’t let me hold you back :3

[haukinyau1]

No one likes to serve customers who are constantly bashing them.

and the reason for constant bash is? as if we player like to get constant imc’ed

sorry but dont say things half truth.

agree that your thread is a good start for people to work together for a common cause

End of my observation.

[Queue]

My point exactly. The best we can do is provide good, well thought out ideas. From what the GM’s have told me they’ll be really looking at what we’re saying, and they have asked to be tagged in posts like this so they can also discuss our ideas. As seemingly arrogant as it is we have to stay confident in our suggestions being worth analysis and being among the best that will be presented. So tag them in your posts from now on, this is the kind of thing they want to see. I may begin making my own, and I’ll do the same.

[Nekorin]

Your 2nd half is also truth too. Thanks for the correction I’ll take note of it.

No one likes to serve customers who are constantly bashing them. No player /user likes to be constantly face numerous bugs and issues too.

At the very least I see IMC trying to pick up on what we are complaining about and improve. And as part of the community I also feel that at the very least we should also help (in our manner) in making the official forums feel more welcoming to new players too since currently it is one of the few mediums in which it will draw in new players. We just don’t have that many channels in which ToS can be marketed to the others.

The game can’t work when part of the equation isn’t going to change, and we are part of it.

[haukinyau1]

thank you nekorin sis for keeping TOS forum, constructive.

i’m looking forward to the remaining of your writings.

cheers~

p.s: i’ll handle the hue side of the forum, no prob~ huehuehue~

[lladocspark]

The prob is are the devs open minded? Or even that enthusiastic to deal with this if so on the first few months it has not came to this point.

[Eruika]

Suggestion & Idea 1

anyone here wish the game has
lower level cap + fix level cap ( ex. lvl 99 )
no bullshit 330 +++

for me the main benefit having lower level cap and fix level cap

1. this balances the player level gap and makes the specific grinding zone feels alive or crowded

2. easy to balance scalling of stat + the dmg growth
   because its only 99

3. monster can be balance easily on each map
   ex. the monster will hit like a truck in level 70-99 but will be squishy as ■■■■
   now a tank role comes into play and shines this part

4. with fix level cap ( ex. 99 ) it balances between casual and hardcore player

here is my example scenario :

• quited fully geared of my level 99

and after several months lets say 5months
new content has arrive ( monster , new items , maps , cards , weapon & armor etc . )

and as a returnee player
i will just update my outdated items easily no need to grind level
encourage me to play again

Suggestion & Idea 2
Remove the Exp Penalty Seriously
and wtf why does Monster DMG multiplies if youre level gap !

in Ragnarok online the most easiest class to level up is Acolyte aka Cleric
i can go to glassheim at low level you just need to Kill Steal some mobs by healing and it give huge amount of exp ( aka power leveling )

ofcourse there is a risk going to higher level map ( 1 hit KO depending on level + long distance marathon town to dungeon )

but the one good design of RO is the skill of each class
( acolyte has a skill that can warp and use a gemstone ( you can even make it as a profitable business )

sadly in Tree of savior you need to reach rank 8 before you can use that skill

Suggestion & Idea 2
Make Class More threatening By Class Rank
some R3 class is so meh feels like not rewarding

most mmo when you reach higher class you get threatening skill / large AOE /flashy skill / Killer Skill / WOW skill / annoying skill !

lets pretend if RAGNAROK is TOS

Rank 1 ( Mage ) : most of your high dmg comes from single target spell not so flashy

Rank 2 ( Wizard ) : you get new variety of skill
nuke skill + crowd control skill ( deadly in pvp )

Rank 3 ( High Wizard ) : Upgraded skill dmg of previous skill

in tos for awhile you get 1 - 2 new skill each rank worst is only 1 skill for last rank.

one example of bad class is Pyro 3 ( you get a flamethrower when you reach Class 3 where is the variety of selection of skill )

ex. in RO when you play high assassin lets imagine its the equivalent of C3 in TOS

you can either play Sonic Blow ( Melee ) or Soul Destroyer ( range type )

now in Tree of Savior , when you reach Pyro 3 you play what type ?
nothing seriously only Flamethrower skill is added to last Rank of Class

Here is my Idea
why not add 3-5 skill on each Class R2 or R3
class not the generic ( upgrade dmg / duration etc … )

also feel like the meteor skill of elementalists should be skill Class 3 of PYRO 3 while the frost cloud is the C3 of Cryomancer

i hope you get my point

Suggestion & Idea 4

rework some skill visual and effects
you notice? some effects of skill is so copy paste but only visually change slightly?

if not , i give you one example

Pyro : Flameground ( slow ticks )
Elementalists : Frost Cloud ( fast ticks )
Krivis : Zaibas ( counted hits )

i feel like this is game is not properly designed in first place
feels so unpolished and unfinished

summary : this game really needs a rework