Tree of Savior Forum

Mostly Mage Classes and Skills Feedback

I’ve already talked about Falconers and how they cost more than they’re worth. In order to balance something there is an equation you basically have to follow for MMOs, Cost + Effort = Reward. The Cost can include, mana, hp, cooldowns (to a lesser degree) stamina weapon/armor types or even unique cases like how it costs 33 TP and over 400k gold to cast a Falconers spells. Then you have the Effort, this is almost entirely player side and in most tab target games it doesn’t exist much, how hard a skill is to land should be considered for how good the skill is, a skill shot in a straight line like the Fire Style skill Shinobi has is a good example of an ability that should be allowed to do a lot of damage, while Ice Bolt is an example of a skill that should do very little. That brings us to the final thing, reward, this includes damages, CC, buffs and debuffs, whatever the purpose of the skill/class is, that is the reward, for using all that mana and aiming all that stuff you get this. Falconers cost too much, in effort and in TP/Gold to be worth such a mediocre reward.

However I’ve already gone on about that last time, and the fact is this game does have more Under Powered classes that I think should be talked about.

First up is Linker, Similarly to Corsair which I also talked about last time, the only worthwhile thing Linker does is bind and pull monsters, unlike Corsair which has options if you want to restrict weapons or the mediocre unlock chest ability for those final 5 points, Linker has nothing of value, If you go Linker C1 and 5/5 on Joint Penalty and Hangmans Knot, you’re done, the only other options for skills you have is a thing to make smart people take more damage because of their dumb allies and a skill to cancel that garbage effect when you realize how bad it is.there is no reason to ever Unbind Joint Penalty and you shouldn’t be trolling your party with Physical Link in the first place, you either have a tank taking the damage and you want the tank to take the damage, or you’re kiting back and the only ones getting his are the idiots failing at it, why suffer with them, just let them pay the full price of their bad play. It wouldn’t be such an awful skill if it was on a class that had mass party healing but Linker has absolutely no way to heal the damage they force allies to take. Not to mention if you’re in PvP your good PvPers are not paying for the mistakes of bad PvPers. This is the one class I absolutely hate seeing on my team, it’s cool for hunting items, pairing it with Thaumaturge but even then you need a total of 10 of those point, I know that there is the attribute for the Unbind to do damage but you could probably do more damage without it if you left them linked after pulling them, so 10-11 points for the class and forget about the other 4.

Next up we have Wizard, every starter class gives something of actual value in the first stages, whether it’s Swordsmans Pain Barrier, Clerics Heal/Safety Zone or Archers Swift Step, all of these things play a big part in how the class plays as you go on, you’re always gonna value these skills regardless of what other classes in your tree you picked, so being forced into the first class isn’t a big deal, if you told me I am exempt from the rules of the game, I can combine any 8 classes from on tree I want, I would still pick Swordsman and and Cleric without doubt in their class trees, I’d also probably still pick Archer, but Wizard? Not a chance in ■■■■■■■ hell, that class is trash. Reflect Shield is underrated sure, but the rest is bad, and reflect shield can’t carry it, but it’s made worse by the fact that Wizards actually have a skill that would fix this, it’s just in the wrong circle, if I were IMC doing this big class rebalancing I would take Surespell and swap it with Sleep, I would also lower it’s duration at C1, C1 lvl 5 duration would be less than 21 seconds, in C2 it would still scale up to 45 seconds, meaning C2 isn’t useless because it gives the 100% up time on this valuable skill.As it is though, Wizard is such a sad class.To make things just a little worse, Wizard is the caster class of the game, which means it’s the class where you can least afford to go C2 of the starting class, Swordsman C2, No problem you mostly auto attack anyways so you don’t need Highlander or Peltasta skills that bad anyways, if you want them you can always give something up, but Wizards they need enough spells to never resort to auto attacks, every time you double up you give up spells, you can do it a little sure but doubling up on a class that gives no worthwhile attacking spells, that’s pretty awful. Earthquake should be buffed and Lethargy should probably be removed and replaced with another worthwhile attacking spell but the big thing is just that Surespell is in the wrong spot.

Next we have the final caster class I will comment on, the Enchanter, at first Enchanter looks fine, I mean it’s very supportive and it’s a money maker so you don’t expect it to be some godlike DPS or anything, it needs to be balance, this is the cost and the reward working together, but there is an issue, Enchant Lightning does nothing, Idk if Mage auto attacks are missiles but judging by the fact that Energy Bolt is not, I’m gonna say no they’re not either, and if that’s true, an Enchanter cannot use their own Enchant Lightning, this is as bad as Corsair and that stupid flag, I don’t expect Enchanters to be super good at DPSing but this is a Rank 8 class, with no attacking moves, and the one damage buff they have doesn’t even benefit themselves. I would say that it is fine if it was in the Cleric line, since that tree is filled with support skills and the character you build can take on a full worthwhile and true support class, with heals and everything but as we noted earlier with Linker there is no healing, this is a very offensive focused tree and the best it can be as a support is pulling monsters together and buffing allies attacks. I wish Wizards had an attribute to turn off their ranged auto attacks and instead swing their weapon, I mean they can already equip a Hammer, just let them swing it. This attribute on it’s own would fix Enchanter entirely.

Anyways I’d like to complain about Chronomancer as well but the fact is as much as it sucks to not have any damage abilities that class has value in a lot of the stuff it does. This has been TPKs Mostly Mage Classes and Skills Feedback, thank you for reading and may you never experience having a Linker on your team in your TBL matches.

I totes agree with the linker, wizard and chronomancer class as they do really need a buff of some sort. As for Falconers I’m not sure how they work considering I don’t have one but I can see where you’re coming from, being named a falconer and not being able to carry a falcon because of TP issues, not having space, etc just doesn’t seem right and as for silver usage for skills I also agree to this only because they decreased the silver cost for some items needed to cast skills for example runes for rune caster went from 500 silver to 100… yet the dimensional piece needed to cast backmasking for chronomancer is still 10k a pop but maybe it’s just me being cheap. :money_mouth_face::rofl:

Afaik Enchant Lightning works with mage autoattacks and converts them to lightning property; there’s also the benefit to dagger Wizards or staff Wizards that can autoattack with the C button.

IMO Wizard C2 and C3 are fine, the problems I have with them is that their attack skills are pretty bad. Earth Quake has a really bad scaling, there’s no way that the 3 overheat can make up for standing around several seconds that could’ve dealt more damage by autoattacking.

Energy Bolt is just gruesome, the worst skill to invest points imo, better put them in Lethargy or Sleep. Btw, Lethargy is really cool, it can severely cripple enemies(cutting away more than 50% of their attack) when maxed, attributed and on a build with high amounts of INT. As a bonus, it also boosts strike damage, e.g. for those who like to autoattack with their staff(C button).

Surespell got buffed, it now requires only 3 points for full uptime so I believe it’s fine at Circle 2, imo it’s the only reason you might want to take Wiz further if you’re not planning to get Magic Missle or Quickcast.

My issue is that Wizard C3 is the most underwhelming Rank 3 Class.
The skill scaling of Energy Bolt and Earth Quake is already bad, but Magic Missile?
That skill is pretty much useless unless you got a huge horde of enemies, simply because the amount of missiles is too low. Imo they should exchange the missile count, making the initial missile count scale with skillevel and fix the spreading missiles at 3;
this would result in the same amount of missiles overall, but give more use against bosses and low counts of mounsters.

Quick Cast is especially useless, as most Wizard Class skills only have a low cast time and Surespell basically fixes the fear of getting interrupted. The only Class that requires this skill is Runecaster, basically the worst Wizard Class [low damage,low utility,low synergy,high CD times], so by building Wiz3>x>Runecaster you already handicapped your build several times…
It would be nice if quick cast could actually increase the attack speed of Wizards mainhand autoattacks, similarly to Quicken, so that the skill actually has another use for that precious buffslot it occupies.

Linker is in an unfavorable situation right now, but he’s by no means a weak or bad Class; it’s just bad that there is no real benefit from going Linker C2 or C3 other than getting more targets on JP, a buff share skill and a buff for status value sharing.

Physical Link could be a good skill if it would actually, instead of spreading damage, boost the AoE defence ratio of every party member by something like 0,5x skilllevel + number of party members, resulting in a really high AoE defence ratio when leveled.
That way sticking closer together would be beneficial as most monsters would only be able to hit one party member instead of all.

It also wouldn’t collide/overlap with the new effects of Paladins Barrier or any protective skills. In fact, such a change would make Linker a highly valuable Class as skills with a countlimit like Safety Zone/Guardian Saint became more useful to protect the party.

What I think that needs work with my limited experience being a pve player

Wizard: Reflect shield (Probably good for pvp?)

Cryomancer: Gust (Also probably good for pvp? coz of Knockback) I’ve only seen people using it on their icewall for additional ice shard after using PP or when PP gets canceled.

Elementalist: Stone curse (WHO USES THIS???)

Falconer class was already discussed. As the falcon is an artifact and not a pet, it should not occupy a character slot. but seriously it was discussed previously.

Linker was nerfed and lost a lot of utility. Joint penalty now has a count limit, Spiritual chain (linker c2) and Lifeline (linker c3) are cool but impossible to maintain as players spread across the screen and links disappear too easily. atm link resistent mobs nullify the choice of being a linker

Wizard here I have to disagree little.
Energy bolt is good. it’s an instant missile attack (before it was charged as ice pike) with a short cool down. Sleep and lethargy are more useful in pvp than in pve but they do work. Lethergy atm is a nice debuff and has an attribute to help strike attacks. Reflect shield is just a waste on the buff bar (as a Pve skill)

Archer C1 is definitely worse than Wizard C1 as it provides only 1 utility skill (swift step) that without Circle 2, critical rate attribute, is useless.

Enchanter (and Sage too) are meh as R8 class, i agree with you (but as @ReportofAusterity said “Enchant Lightning works with mage autoattacks and converts them to lightning property”)

As a main wizard player, I have 8 wizards and have played every class of it.
We was once the best tree in R7, but in R8 we were introduced all bad classes, and post combat changes we lost shine in everything (support/cc/dps). We was best because we can be excel in any 1 area, but not multiple areas.

Overall at the moment: Cleric > Swordsman > Archer > Wizard

  1. Cleric because most low rank classes are powerful and viable in R8, Cleric gameplay is mostly interesting but not OP. Many of their build excel in multiple roles like dps+support. (cleric2 is mostly OP, safety zone/heal/divine might covered a lot of things compare to other trees)
  2. Swordsman because many high rank classes excel in DPS with a lot of buff that scale % (but it just all they have, and some are OP like dopple3, goon-lancer, and shino-murmillo)
  3. Archer because many R8 classes look good in R9, but unlike swordies archer have not enough buff that scale %.
  4. Wizard, because we have mostly useless R1-R4 classes (except cryo) and R8 classes (arguably except warlock), and except elem we do not have enough good damage skills(support have no damage skill at all), and we are the easiest to get interrupt and knockdown)

Wizard -
Reflect Shield - As bench marking with cleric/swordy, they have pain barrier/safety zone to mitigiate knockdown, our reflect shield should do the same thing and i don’t mind we have lesser threshold. (archer can mitigate with range attack)
Surespell & Quickcast - It is a bit ambiguous since most wizard’s skill doesn’t use cast spell, it might better

Pyromancer - Since linker and multihit nerf, pryomancer totally lost its direction, fireball-hk-jp was very unique and fun mechanism but it removed. The entire pyromancer mechanic need to enhance, and i hope we can bench-marking it with quarrel shooter, which is a good dps-filler classs when you used all your high rank skills. Skill wise doesn’t need to change, but we need to buff “burn effect” thru new attribute, we need longer duration and stackable so that is act as good filler damage.

Linker - Also from god to dog, joint penalty need to take more hits or scale with SPR.

Thaumaturge - overall Thauma is my most favorite class in wizard, i hope C3 will be much better
Swell Brain - need new attribute give more special effect like MDef or all wizard skills +1 or +50% status immunity to benefits all classes instead of matk class only.

Sage -
Blink need to work with casting skill, the leaving clone need able to continue casting physicpresure/hellbreath/magneticforce so save psychokino’s biggest problem. Is it a red icon class? Maybe it design for PvP, but it need more good dps skill.

Enchanter -
The lightning need to modify some skills like energy bolt / magic missiles as well, else it is boring just enchant fire v1.5
*the whole concept of enchanter is weird, its support skill doesn’t useful, no attribute design, enchant bomb is rubbish, i hope they will come back something unique and much better in R9, it is difficult to fix this class without revamp whole concept.

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I disagree, Swell Brain is one of the few reasons to make a party without Swordsman&Archer viable. It should stay the way it is, but have a better scaling so you actually get more matk boost for your SPR.

There are a lot of debuffs and buffs already that mainly or only boost physical damage (e.g Jolly Rogers Fever, Storm Callings attribute, Kagura, Breaking Wheel, most debuffs of Classes like Murmillio,Monk,Dragoon to name a few) on top of the possibility to crit, while magic attack has nearly no boost and/or debuff to boost only the magic damage aside from Hexings magic defence reduction or some Hunter skill attributes that don’t apply to boss monsters.

IMO there should be a lot more buffs&debuffs that only affect magic damage for the sake of fairness.

More like Swordsman>Wizard>Cleric>Archer if you ask me.
There are basically only debuff stacking builds(e.g. Pala Inqui/Monk Inqui) and builds with Sadhu&Plague Doctor viable for damage in the Cleric Tree currently.
And the most Classes in Ranks 2-4 of Cleric are bad, not powerful or viable.

Priest?
weak and lackluster due to the Pardoner shop; only useful to ressurect your undergeared stooges.
Krivis?
better than Priest but still lacking, especially in the damage department if not in combination with Sadhu3 and/or Taoist.
Bokor?
This is the only viable choice for damage even if you only go for Bokor C1 or C2, as you get Hexing and Effigy + some zombies.Damballa is potentially the strongest AoE damage skill ingame as long as you feed enough zombies to it.
Downside is that dark element is resisted by the majority of stronger monsters, so the Hexing attribute only helps to overcome the damage difference, not to actually boost damage.
Dievdirbys?
The theme is good but C1 already features the most useful skills, while C2 and C3 are basically lackluster, unless you add Miko on top to keep your Owls,Ausrine and World Tree on the field…
Sadhu?
This Class is really bad on its own, it needs to be at least C2 to be viable, but C3 is recommended as you will need Transmit Prana to deal good damage.
Paladin?
Even after the rework, this Class is mainly a tank/defensive option, and requires C3 to be of any use(Barrier,active C button-blocking attribute).

Hmm, you are too dps minded. I doesn’t mean it that way, more like the overall gameplay.

For Swell Brain, it worse than swell left arm itself, it basically add matk that’s it. No uniqueness
C3 need to be unique and it is the class signature itself, but current swell brain is not the answer.
I dont care if it is not dmg buff, but it need smt more meaningful than SLA and SRA, even it replace legacy quickcast 50% magic damage if can. We are damage buff slave mostly, we lack of % buff we need, even i use mastema, it help heal bomb and cure dmg a lot!

Considering low rank classes as utility, if you sort it base on DPS then it might right. Krivis Priest Paladin Bokor Diev are strong support classes, those skills are very useful even with C1 filler.

But for Cryo need to be C3, and Chrono also need to be C3 to be good. Even Thaum3 need C3 to be good, but Priest C3 or Paladin C3 have better functionality coverage than any wizard support classes, which is mostly 1 skill class and need C3.
Wiz,Pyro,Psycho,Linker are just very limited if u compare.

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I noticed we missed one point from my original post so I’d just like to say again, the thing that makes Wizard bad isn’t it’s overall skills but rather the placement of them, yes earthquake is bad and magic missile isn’t good either but it’s the fact that the C1 for Wizard is no where near as good as any other class.

If any other class is under powered it’s okay because you are not forced to choose it, but Wizard is the one class that is ■■■■ but you’re forced to have it. If they put Sure Spell in C1 this would fix up the issue a little bit because most Wizard classes have some skill that benefits from it and without it, it really sucks. Give it a lower uptime at rank 1 but the same at rank 2.

Wizard 3 being good or not isn’t as much the issue, Wizard 1 is garbage and this should change. Swordsman and Cleric 1 are both fantastic classes and even Archer gets 2 good skills, Swift Step and the rapidly firing skill.Swift Step may be underwhelming compared to Pain Barrier or Safety Zone but it is on a class that is a little safer as is, however it still works well with high dex, but on top of that the attacking move is really good, even if you just tap it for the quick hits.

Archer 1 is really useless too. Multishot scales badly and it’s only decent again if you use circling. Swift step without circle 2 is trash, as evasion is useless.

if your post is, in short, “cleric and swordsman circle 1 are good, archer and wizard circle 1 are bad they need to be balanced” i agree with you

Things I hope to see when Wiz gets the spotlight at the massive balancing thing:

Wizards - higher hit count on Energy Shield (not a lot more, maybe just +50% of current value).

Pyro - higher cast speed on Fireball (we need this, not 5 OH…), or make it ranged.
Firewall’s max hitcount still gets divided by the target’s AoE defense -> THIS NEEDS TO GO.

Linker - new skills.

Psychokino - telekinesis bug fix. Seriously, it’s been crashing the game for months now…

WL - fix circle 2 skills… how long will them be useless garbage/bugged?

Enchanter - we got 300s Agility, can we give it an actual effect now…?! Empower also became really useless after the combat update, needs work.

Sage - OVERHAUL. After the TBL MH nerfs, the only thing this class will have going for them is the taxi service…

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IMO, the current tier of wizard trees as PvE.
Tier S can leave it, but 1-2 skills need to improve to make them perfect. Like Stonecurse/Swell Brain/Gust.
Tier A is likely 1-2 skill(s) class, but it need 2-3 good skills to hit rank S.
Tier B is likely broken concept and lost definitive role, they’re restrictive and lackluster, buff skill doesn’t work really, but need more like minor concept enhance.
Tier C as well broken concept and no definitive role, skills mostly unperformed and just v2.0 from another class.

Tier S
Cryomancer - provide the best CC skill with grouping and frozen ability, and Icewall can be a strategic DPS weapon as well.
Elementalist - provide best number of skills for rotation with good damage factor. Frostcloud the best AoE skill so far
Thaumaturge - provide strongest damage buff which benefit much in log-scale-down system, shrink body is underestimated skill in general PvE, as well as a class that provide a lot of gimmicks, stats and gears flexibility.

Tier A
Sorcerer - provide strong damage, but drawback is SPR-based pretty limited it summon-caster hybrid potential, and summon’s ai still a bit unreliable, thaum3-sorc2 might be a solution, until R10 maybe more viable. C3 is lackluster, it will be good if C3 able to cast wizard skills on mounting to make it unique signature move.
Warlock - provide strong damage %, but drawback is harder to aim with animation delay and dark element pretty disadvantage in general, evil spirit/invocation is pretty buggy and difficult to generate when in party.
Chronomancer - haste provide movespeed to mitigate many damage, quicken provide crit rate, and pass provide sustainable skills rotation, drawback is that no damage skill at all.

Tier B
Necromancer - Except afk farming and missile debuff, nothing impressive.
Pyromancer - Good skills rotation, but damage and animation suks, ‘burn debuff’ too short.
Linker - Good in solo, but literally useless in party, lifeline is good for Swell/Enchant. Rest of skills doesn’t work well or useful.
Featherfoot - Monsters type made it very restrictive, and small hit box and melee with single target made this class fall behind. (wizards hate melee and mid-range, because we have no mitigation to knockdown/knockback)
Runecaster - it is a caster, a good filler class generally, and not expect to be impressive in single circle.
Psychokino - Stand casting made this class very restrictive compare to Frostpillar, damage is not impressive either, but have good interaction with icewall.

Tier C
Sage - Taxi service is what this class left, nothing good to replicate since Owl/Fireball nerfed. (might see more in R9)
Enchanter - Enchant lightning is useful but not impressive at all, worse than enchant fire without extra line. (might see more in R9)
Alchemist - Non battle related, most useful is homunculus but very restrictive, whole alchemist system is abandoned and nothing too meaningful update.
Wizard - Surespell is probably the most useful skill, energy bolt is good for cleaning trash mobs.

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I’d put Thaumaturge in A Tier and move Warlock to S Tier. Warlock is pretty solid in damage even if dark element is a little disadvantageous

Thauma has more than 2 skills that are lacking, basically all of the skills except Swell Right Arm,Swell Left Arm and Swell Body are flawed.
Shrink Body has a way too small AoE and requires the caster to practically stand inside a mob to hit several targets due to the range of the magic.
It would be better if they exchanged the skills range and AoE with Wizards Sleep that would actually benefit from being a non-target melee CC skill.

Aside of that, Transpose and Reversi are pretty much lacking in every department possible, they are only good/useful in specific situations/builds and not useful for normal PVE content (especially Transpose that uses up another precious buff slot on top of the swell skills).

The reason is simple: the gameplay is all about damage.

There are simply no instances where survival or tactics bring you anywhere. All you need is full damage and good equip/buffs for the defence to survive. And although there are a lot of good Cleric skills, they feel lackluster once you’ve advanced enough in equipment because they provide less and less boni.
And weak skills stay weak, even if you boost them via attribute, because multiplying low numbers won’t result in high numbers all of a sudden. You need to stack multiple layers of debuffs/buffs/skill interactions for that to happen.

“Endgame”-contents are always just about racing the DPS-ladder, be it defeating field bosses or trumping the Earth Tower Hard Mode. If you’re too weak, you won’t make it through the initial levels that are DPS-checks due to time out, thus never meet the bosses.

Support is only good as long as it can actually compensate for the damage lost, and given the options to buy Krivis/Priest buffs in form of scrolls/buff shop boosts, they are a lot less viable. Imagine everyone could just buy Haste/Pass scrolls or buy a Doppelsoeldner mercenary, wouldn’t these Classes become less useful as well?

Being a walking potion,skilllevel boost and failsave in case someone dies shouldn’t be the role of Clerics, builds without Heal[which are possible but unfavorable]/Safety Zone/Divine Might need to be a real option in “competitive” content, not just one on paper.

All in all I believe the current Cleric has a lot of badly designed Classes for the content that the game actually offers at the moment.
Pre-balance patch monsters were a lot more dangerous, thus required good reflexes,judgement of the situation and fast reactions on top of having decent equipment.

Now you just need Pardoner buffs (especially Aspersion and Increased Magic Defense) and equipment befitting your level, maybe some upgrades and/or transcendence stages on it and you’re good to go against the HP sponges the monsters are from level 330 onwards. If the monsters still hit too strong, equip a shield and throw in a block potion, problem solved…

Skills like Ein Sof have no real practical use aside the fact that you can actually unequip your armor to save it for boss fights in ET e.g. because of the quadrupled HP (Ein Sof level 15= +300% HP) and doubled healing capacity.
It’s basically god mode on steroids, but there is no threat that makes this useful.
Same goes to the lackluster support of Oracle(well, there’s hope in the next balance patches)…
Basically nearly all higher-circled support of Clerics is faulty in one or more ways, because people rather have a low-tier support Class in their parties than a higher-tiered one (only exemptions are Taoist for survival ET floors and Plague Doctor, but Plague Doctor is taken because it actually deals damage on top in contrast to Oracle/Kabbalist/Pardoner).

I… I don’t know anymore. Sage isn’t just worth taking anymore especially with the CD nerf on Missile Hole. I enjoy experimenting with my build instead of going with the meta. If this game will force me to follow a specific meta to make Sage viable, I don’t think I’d enjoy it. Hopefully, Sage gets more viability in its 2nd circle.

That’s the problem of the game now, too focusing on DPS
And DPS is root caused by x8 chappys/moles card and Transcendence.
But let see after patched with limit to x3 chappys/moles, how is it going.

But if focusing on functionalities, it will be hell to balancing due to buff/debuff policy, as well as game engine, and monster AI need to revamp by a lot to cater for intensive and smart combat.