This sums things up in a very succinct and simple way. It should be printed and stuck to the wall inside IMC as a consistent reminder. @moderators
If anyone internally at IMC is still downplaying these issues (we can’t know) or acting as a problematic barrier in the team to getting things to progress then they really ought to sit down with a new player and just try going through the game. They won’t get to level 50. Things are in the worst state for new players that they have ever been.
You don’t need exp bonus, It’s just an easy way. You don’t exactly need market, it’s an easy way. You can make money selling Vubbe Fighter Blood and other things on demand. Just trade for talt and make 1k silver in 1 - 2 days without market and without the extra DG slot.
The less limited trading is the only point which I agree, I think.
In any MMO there will be patches and new stuff. People who don’t have the time to farm and play often or hardcore players in a hurry to become ~the best~ can pay for a “boost”, if this boost prevents the rest of the players to play without paying then the game is P2W.
This doesn’t happen in ToS because who doesn’t want to pay has many alternatives to achieve the same things in a relatively short time.
@Melon Yeah, you don’t need to participate in an economy-based game to take advantage of the whole reason for a community, anyway! Just play it like it’s a single-player game and be gimped on movespeed, silver potential, exp grinding, and dungeons! Unless you decide to shell out millions of silver (over the course of a few months) for the same bonus given to anyone willing to just cough up some dough, while simultaneously filling the pockets of those same IRL-money-spenders with even more in-game money, even though it’s already significantly easier for them to move, level, make silver, and participate in the economy! 
Sounds totes reasonable! F2P def.
But seriously, some people do have varied interpretations of the term “Pay to win” because everyone defines “winning” differently. If I define “winning” as “making more silver” and “leveling more quickly,” then anything you can buy that enhances these things is p2w in my opinion.
You basically took the words right out of my mouth.
Things like that aren’t common and aren’t a stable way to make silver in-game.
Not everyone collects talt like crazy,some just want to trade their silver for the item they want without complications and without using a trade.
Or regular players who want to have the notably better experience ToS is offering for $9.Doesn’t matter what kind of player you are,money is money to IMC.
It does happen,it is a boost that literally lets the people paying for it enjoy the nicer parts/perks of the game more than people who do not pay. They aren’t maps or quests,but there are literally things you get with a token that you can’t get without one.
But P2W and F2P have a very broad range of opinions and feelings behind them,so this debate will never have a true “winner”.
In the current state of the game you don’t need to farm for months. You farm 1 day or 2 and buy a Token, just farm the right items. And although some don’t want to accept it, yeah, you can live without a Token. You can be a f2p player if you want it 
I played a game where you could hardly kill mobs even in the early maps without a cash item.
You could buy mounts in the cash shop, but it was useless if you don’t buy mount feed weekly, also in the cash shop.
You needed to buy runes to be stronger, to do more damage, to heal more. But 1 level or 2 level runes wasn’t enough. You needed to spend maybe more than $1,000 to be almost strong.
You also needed to buy another cash item to get the 250% damage and heal bonus, but you could only activate it with another cash item that you needed to buy every month.
Do you want to complain about it? Well, pay for it. Only cashers could use forums on some servers.
That was pay to win for me, a “f2p” game where f2p players or players who don’t want to spend constantly couldn’t play at all. And if you wanted to buy cash items, you would pay much more than you would in a p2p game.
ToS has a system that benefits those who pay, but there is nothing to prevent those players who don’t want to pay. So if you want to be a f2p player, you are free to choose, because you can do it.
yep, pretty much this.
I would like to add that often times P2W isn’t about winning but about the unfair advantage of a particular system.
I hold the basic principle (which I think applies to all cases) that if I cannot pay for it, I should be able to work for it in-game.
Offer player an alternative to acquire said feature and suddenly it is no longer P2W, but a matter of convenience.
Now people might use that example where you can buy Tokens off market, however, you are giving the TP buying player an advantage again (silver in this case). But say if you can farm certain “Token fragments” and then combine them in game, then buying Token using TP is nothing but a convenience and would be viewed balanced by most players.
The reason why cosmetics never raised a problem in P2W is because it confers no in-game advantage. This proves that there is an underlying principle of fairness in the P2W idea and isn’t always subjective or opinion based.
Literally this. This is basically what I said a few months ago in a thread about how this game was P2W and all the babies ran in yelling and screaming about how clearly we haven’t played TRUE P2W games and blah blah.
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the death of the game
Do you actually know about Kim excuses ?
Dunno if you try to troll this topic or if you are just allergic to logic.
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You had not to answer me, your opinion is invalid here. Kim didn’t speak.
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Yes, you are allergic to logic. And allergic to facts.
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Lol, maybe because his game without players is not a MMO anymore ? Anyway, you seem to forget he followed many suggestions when ToS was first released, from both Korean and EU community.
All those damn off-topic examples making no sense. I understand now, you don’t want him to fix those bugs, because your brain is using IA system from ToS.
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I left this game recently to return on GW2 like many other people, because their was something else much better for us. You are far from the truth if you think, only people who posted their suggestions/negative review left this game. It’s just 1% of us. And it doesn’t mean we only hated this game.
The class System : being able to pick an older class at higher circles. It’s from the players.
I’m not bashing you. Bash is a Swordman skill, and I don’t play Swordman.
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I have seen many topics in this same forum where people offer suggestions to recover the popularity of the game or complain (if we avoid ‘children angry’ and ‘white knights’) justifying the reasons. In any subject, seriously it has raised, I still have not seen IMC respond responsibly.
Often, the solution is simple and inexpensive for the company (for example, you can end up with Goldseller and Bots with a system of Captcha that randomly select half hour to five hours and lock the account automatically, or simply as in other F2P to alleviate the issue Goldseller, prohibit chat in all its forms to people who have not purchased any DLC or / and have no more than 5 TP (DLC I include access to the preview of the game. I’m one of those people) . In all ways, you can always talk to your friends with an external chat program.
Not wanting to repeat myself, and I did a post where present my suggestions (as so many have already done and ignored the rest).
https://forum.treeofsavior.com/t/suggestions-to-restore-the-popularity-of-tree-of-savior/320535
Sorry for my english.