Tree of Savior Forum

Main Story Quests and Map Linear Progression Feedback!

Gameplay Feedback General Feedback
#1

To all ToS fans and players, I’ve been wondering something for a while now and it’s starting to bug the heck out of me. I know IMC games can’t satisfied both casual and hardcore players, so I believe they should make a game that leans toward casuals or hardcores and just not both.

There is a good saying from Bill Cosby, “I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone.” If IMC games, wishes to make ToS for casual players, than I’m all up for it and I shall stay quiet and be happy for them. However, I would wish for IMC games to create a similar games but for us hardcore gamers while hoping that casual gamers would stay quiet for us hardcore gamers.

For Tree of Savior, I feel that this game is like every other MMORPG out there that follows a fix path. There is no freedom. Sure, going out and grinding on monsters is boring as hell, but at least it allows more freedom around the maps instead of a fix path. What is the difference between grinding quests and grinding on monsters? The answer is none. All of the main story quests and side quests here will just lower the replay value of Tree of Savior and making the lower level maps and town be dead maps. As the time goes on, only the higher level maps will be populated while the lower level maps and town will be empty. But hey, if you believe in grinding quests and don’t mind repeating the same quests when making another alts then be my guest, as there will be people who enjoy games like this.

I know bringing RO into my argument is a sin, however, RO is unique in a way that we really get to do whatever the hell we want. There is absolutely no quests that requires us to do them. I’m pretty sure I’ve just open myself to a lot of debate about why “There is absolutely no quests that requires us to do them.”. First off, I want to say that the quests in RO wasn’t there solely for us to gain exp/levels, it was there for us to open a secret passage way or a hidden class/ability/items. Second, since RO quests weren’t amount to much in terms of experience, we did not feel pressure in doing them in order to stay on top of other players.

There will be many of you who would disagree on me and say “If you think RO is not linear also then you’re totally wrong, as everyone go to the best leveling places and the best farming locations in RO.”, or “RO Alpha used to be very linear with it’s 3 towns”, ect… Just calm down and think for a while. We were the one who decided the best leveling locations were and that’s the best part about RO. We had to travel and travel and travel and finding our best leveling locations and leaving our secret leveling spots for the next generation down. How awesome is that? People who posted their information become famous/known for their good advice and tips.

As for RO Alpha that used to be very linear and had 3 towns shown here. Yes, yes, yes. I saw it but if you take a closer look between Tree of Savior and RO Alpha, then you will notice that with the RO Alpha map, they can expand in any direction they want. Tree of Savior can only expand upwards.

All in all, there will be some who don’t see my points, which is fine and there will be some who will stop reading when they saw how I bought up RO, which is also fine. I wrote this because I want to leave my thoughts floating in the air for people to think about. This is truly what you want in a MMORPG game? Thanks.

11 Likes
#2

Well said…
Just as i mentioned in my other posts. This game is much more like RO2 rather than RO, except for the grinding part.
Games without a fixed path and end game contents lasted for years. Just like RO or even DMO.
Players don’t mind grinding in those games because anything you get at any level could still be use even if you’re at max level. And…not everybody likes to save the world…

p.s Back in RO, the best leveling maps are maps with no bots until they intro PKServers. Grind games attract bots.

3 Likes
#3

I can agree …100% with the OP.
I’ve tried many korean MMOs, and they were ALL linear. It gets boring quick: You don’t explore, because you just have to follow one path. Don’t bother searching for equipment or trying out your unique build on high level monsters, because they will kill you and you can’t wear any of that equipment anyway. You also don’t choose your favourite leveling places based on your skills and equip, the game does it for you… also about the story: every player is “the hero who saves the world” is kinda…weird …and it was really disapointing to see that ToS was the same.
Yes, you could ignore the quests and just start grinding, but you won’t find any benefit in doing that.

Don’t get me wrong, Tree of Savior is still awesome, because of the nice graphics, the gameplay and the music! And it’s also very unique compared to other kMMOs, because it has that Diablo 3 style gameplay and you can kill standart enemies very fast, which is great.

What I would do: make it more like Ragnarok Online was… add a training ground, let players start the game at different locations so they will get a feeling for a “home town” depending on their class. Then let them search for grinding spots, equipment, headgears, dungeons, and quests. Some easy-to-find quests could tell the story of the game.

Yeah, people will come and say “don’t compare it to RO, ToS should be unique, etc.”, but it’s not unique when every other MMO has that same linear quest system… Also, RO had some changes since renewal which makes it more like the other typical kMMOs, too bad everyone went in that direction.

Anyway, I’m pretty sure they won’t “remake” the gameplay of ToS anymore… but I just wanted to say that I agree with the OP, and I prefer the non-linear RO-style, and I’m glad that other people feel the same way.
Btw, just my opinion here: “Grinding can be fun. If you don’t like fighting monsters with your character: play a different class, or a different game” lol

7 Likes
#4

Thanks! I’m glad you feel the same way. Sometimes, it’s just really hard to make a game that satisfied everyone. This is a learning experience that IMC games can learn from. I just hope one day, they would announce a game in a making that leans toward hardcore gamers, as casual gamers already got ToS from them (IMC Games openly said that ToS is aiming toward casual players). Of course, nothing is set, and even if that were to happen, we would see few complains here and there from casuals that wants it to be more casual friendly, as newer games are more enticing no matter where you go. The best way to satisfied both is to make one casual and one hardcore MMORPG at the same time, but by doing so the company would go bankrupt before they could release a single one. It is all up to IMC games, which direction they want to approach, and which side they want to hear. Whatever decision they make, I will help support them no matter what, until they finally bring out a masterpiece that we are all waiting for. Thanks.

2 Likes
#5

Tell me that when you reach 100…its no fun at all…
100 in ToS is like 20 in any other games. Grinding isn’t an option at this level. It should start somewhere around 75% of designed level. Let say max level 100, grind should be around 70-75 or max level 600, end story level 400, grind shouldn’t supposed to start before 300…a level that players already attached to the gameplay. Almost complete and too near to give up.
Now that’s what i call applying marketing tactic in developments.

Even in RO i could grab an elemental sword and bash my swordsman or mamo my merchant to 70 (Job Level 50) in a week. Rest of the 29 levels took months…

Hardcore grinding below 20% or designed/end story level isn’t anywhere near casual…
Monster exp table need to be tally with player exp requirement in a linear game.

#6

You are right regarding your point and I agree.

A things to consider: Quests exist to give player a guide line / sense of progressing / casual play option / etc. And yes, they do indeed restrain players by giving them a set path.

.
.
.
Just thinking out loud here… bare with me…
Say we didn’t have exp giving quest, then we could allow players to go out and explore the world and level wherever they wanted. Then, our only leveling mechanic would be by just killing mobs all around the world. I can imagine this getting boring pretty quickly. So we would need other ways to give players exp… but yet again, we can’t use quests…

A quick idea here: Say we did have leveling quest, that worked as dailies. You would have a daily quota you can spend anywhere on the world (by hunting or collecting on any level zone), but I would keep the reward being something level + zone level related. I would expect some extra reward for leveling in a higher level than my character level.
I would also relate them to some sort of reputation related system (currency/items/costumes/etc), but for this we would need more than just 1 main city. If we had more locations, we would have more zone reputation related content and distribute player around the world more evenly. Then these daily would be just an exp boost + a long term currency/reputation gain.

Not very original I guess, but based on the idea of giving players back that awesome RO-like freedom.

1 Like
#7

Actually i was thinking…
Escort Quest (Main) > Escort goods from City A to City B
Along the ‘fixed route’ [Sub Quest] Helping NPCs along the way. Earn EXP Scrolls and Quest Points.
Along the ‘fixed route’ [Main Quest] Fight Bandits & Monsters/Bosses/Local small Demon Lords; Earn Quest Points.

Quest gives multiple EXP scroll 1 - 10 based on Quest points received.
Quest would need 5 people in a party and from the same guild.
Quest could only be accepted in Guild House. (Guild Daily/weekly Quest)
Quest ranked from 1 - 10 depending on routes.
Dying, leaving party or lost of goods/carts would end your quest and have your quest points calculated and receive your rewards (no money)
Only by completing the quest with all party members alive with all sub quests completed will earn you Level 10/20/100 Exp scroll and Silver. All party member must have max quest points.
Sub quest would be from random NPCs (Hidden…not behind trees). One or two per check point.
Sub & Main quest points not rewarded to offline party members.

Addition: Guild Master would receive 1% - 50% (Guild tax) of whatever guild members earned from main quest.
e.g. 5% guild tax. 5 members get 100 Level 10 exp scrolls & 1 million silvers in total. Guild box will get 5 Level 10 Exp scrolls and 50k Silvers only accessed by Guild Master, Members would only get 95 Exp scrolls and 95k Silvers.
Greedy Guild Masters would be abandoned.

Too bad i don’t work for IMC…

1 Like
#8

Hardcore grinding below 20% or designed/end story level isn’t anywhere near casual…
Monster exp table need to be tally with player exp requirement in a linear game.

If only people’s levels of casual and hardcore were set the same for each person, wouldn’t that be great? We don’t have a way to measure how casual or hardcore the game is. It is different for every person. You, my friend, are using your own personal experience to base it on, thus reaching a conclusion that, if it is not casual for you, it is not casual at all for every other casual players. That falls under the category of informal fallacy. Hasty generalization is a type of informal fallacy that reaches a conclusion without considering all of the variables. Also, when a generalization is made from a single example that is called “Fallacy of the Lonely Fact”.

#9

Just go and read the forum…
People who at starting says there’s totally no grind at all are starting to feels the pain when they reached 100++ and out of quests.
After that, check this…


I’m not sure how accurate it is but level 100 monsters seems to give almost same exp as level 40++.
And keep in mind that we’re currently at high exp rate. Its not hard to imagine how hard and EXP Scrolls dependent every level are. One Level 3 EXP Scroll could easily be 100 monsters…

2 Likes
#10

Isn’t it always the same? The games start linear, the first 50 levels are like one long training chapter. And then the quests aren’t enough to level up your character, so the grinding starts…

Yeah I don’t know about ToS: I’m not 100+ yet, but I’m starting to grind already because exp quests/cards are not enough. Oh well, it’s still in Beta, and it’s just different from RO, maybe they could continue that linear questing till level 200+?
But when a game’s gameplay is based on grinding, it should be different: more freedom, exp quests are ok, story(+exp) quests are nice too. There are some options to make a grinding game more interesting.

I can only say that in RO it took me ~3 years to level my character to lvl150, and it was fun, or at least it wasn’t too terrible… I had the option to go to other maps and try different enemies. They didn’t give as much exp, but some nice items, or just a nice relief from the same dungeon… And if I had different skills or weapons I could’ve tried other maps too.
Of course RO could’ve made more use of side-quests or exp quests (I was on european servers and the exp quests end after lvl70…), and the quests system there was terrible .__. Another reason why I’m trying ToS now :smiley:

btw: I think the game-devs prefer making linear gameplay in MMOs, because they don’t have to make too many optional MAPS for optional grinding locations… and the maps in ToS actually look really nice! So it would be sad not to show every map to all players/classes. But that’s where quests would come in handy.

#11

I see that alot of people are sharing the same view as I am. Heh. Bump!