Tree of Savior Forum

Long Time MMO Player on IMC's Trade/Market Restrictions

Hey everyone,

I know posts that commentate on IMC and ToS’s trade restrictions are a dime a dozen around here, but I feel it necessary to compile my thoughts from comments I’ve made in various threads into one. Just a little about me: I have been a pretty hardcore MMORPG player dating back to the very early 2000s playing EverQuest. I have played through almost every MMO that has hit the p2p, subscription, or f2p market. This includes games like World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2, Age of Conan, Perfect World Int’l, RO, Wildstar, EVE Online, etc., etc., etc. The list goes on and on. Hundreds. Just to lend some credibility to my words, knowledge, and how this all has effected me in-game: I currently have a level 180 on the Orsha server. Here is my take on the trading, market, and RMT system in-place in Tree of Savior:

What do RMT Websites sell in ToS?

RMT websites in MMORPGs usually sell 4 main things:

  • In-game currency: pay real life money and obtain a bulk amount of in-game money (in ToS, it’s silver)
  • Power-leveling services: someone accesses your account and levels up your character for you
  • Leveled up accounts: someone has a game account, levels up the character, and sells the account to you, usually with a large amount of currency or items on the character
  • In-game items: pay real life money and someone trades you a rare or unique in-game item (could be an arde dagger, for example)

How can RMT websites offer the above services?

The answer to this is very simple. One word: botting. RMT websites obtain large sums of silver by botting in this game. These large amounts of silver can either be sold directly to players, as stated above, or be converted into rare items to sell directly to players. Bots are obviously also used to power-level your character or power-level your account. That’s why most ToS RMT websites are only selling power-leveling or accounts up to around level 100 or so. The game get’s a little more complicated after that point to keep straight up botting. There is a diminishing return on how effective it is.

How much do the current market/trade restrictions and limitations work?

Answer: they hardly work. When it comes to power-leveling characters and accounts and selling those services - they are as free as the wind to do what they please. There is currently little-to-no consequence.

When it comes to botting for silver to sell, or botting for silver to turn into items to sell… again… there are no consequences. They are free to do what they please. The current system in-place tries to stop RMT on the back-end after they have already acquired large amounts of silver and items. This is evident by the arde daggers on a lot of botted characters and the fact that silver is selling at the rate of 100k : $2-3. There is so much silver in the RMT pockets that they can sell it off so cheaply.

RMT websites can still transfer silver to players through creative market use as well as simple item conversion. They buy an arde dagger and trade you the arde dagger. While the system has made it slightly more complicated to sell silver, it still happens and it is still easy to sell items to people.

RMT people have proven time and time again that if you allow them to accumulate wealth, they will find ways to ruin the market and make money off of it.

As of right now, the current system does not combat power-leveling, selling accounts, selling items, and only makes selling silver slightly harder.

What SHOULD IMC do about RMT in ToS?

The answer is very simple. Eliminate all market and trading restrictions and focus all efforts on getting rid of botting. They need MUCH better bot detection, bot banning, and GM presence. If you eliminate the ability of RMT websites to reliably accumulate wealth, you do not need the market and trade restrictions. It will limit the abilities of RMT websites to function. Almost every other major MMO out there has zero market or trading restrictions and function in a way so that RMT does not crash their economy. This is because they have effective anti-botting measures. Is it possible to completely eliminate botting? No. RMT still exists in other games. But not to the degree that ToS is scared of.

Why has IMC used their current approach?

This is where this writing piece veers into my personal opinion. Let’s take a look at the two paths I have set up in my previous paragraphs:

(1) Trade and Market Restrictions

  • Easy to implement
  • Limits ALL players, including legitimate ones
  • Very cheap to implement (changing code, etc. within the game infrastructure)
  • Put certain market/trade features behind a paywall to limit RMT

(2) Better Anti-Botting Systems / More GM Presence

  • Hard to find a good system/put it into place
  • Expensive to implement/buy
  • Doesn’t limit players in trading/market place

Option #1 is what they have chosen - for very obvious reasons. It is easier to implement and it is CHEAPER to implement. In addition, they can make money off of it (paywall) under the guise that it is preventing RMT for the “good of the game”. The game was not even released with a report function built into it. There were literally zero measures taken against botting when it was already confirmed to be a rampant problem in kToS.

Conclusion

Well, thanks for the reading. I’m not sure what I really hope to accomplish here. I’m just here to educate and put an informed opinion out there. Thank for your taking the time to read and I appreciate any constructive discussion. I can see why IMC made the choices that they did - but this game would be a lot better if they simply bit the bullet and put good anti-botting measures in the game.

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So its okay to make the game worse for players as long as IMC makes money off the bots /RMT :unamused:

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I’m not going to go so far as to say that them making money is the sole reason the current system in place, but it is definitely a positive side effect for IMC. It would be ideal if they got better bot detection/banning, removed trade and market restrictions, and added different incentives to the token that would motivate players to buy it still.

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Bump for visibility during peak hours :slight_smile:

+1
/20 characters…

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If this post was on Reddit, I’d give you gold. Since it isn’t, here’s my appreciation; +1.

Perfect analysis of current situation, effective proposed solution.

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Thanks! Much appreciated.

How do you even come to the conclusion that a better anti-botting software or system is costly? There is none for sale so it whatever they put up would have to be developed in-house and that doesn’t have to be that expensive.

All the thoughts and code they put into the restrictions in the first place weren’t free. Additionally it isn’t hard to find a good system to put into place, it doesn’t exist.

Developers frankly have no clue how to combat a goldseller so that it actually hurts. They have the dream of coming up with a couple of lines that will protect or mitigate the damage somehow, while leaving the general population in peace.

This is pure arrogance on their part. There are more botters earning their bread than their whole team is big. Many botters were already in the business when the devs still were schoolboys.

Unless developers start to accept that they are the underdog and take the proper course of action - which starts with consulting people that have a real idea what they are up against they will not drive them into the corner.

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Think about the types of MMOs that have very poor anti-bot software and more RMT issues:

  • Small company
  • Low budget
  • Free2play

And now the types where botting isn’t so prevalent and RMT isn’t an overwhelming issue:

  • AAA titles
  • extremely sucessful/widespread f2p’s

The most common denominator is $$$.

Are you sure you played WoW? Botting and RMT were a huge deal there. Such a big deal in fact, that blizzard ended up suing the the bot programmers for damage. This didn’t happen 5 or 10 years ago. It happened last year which means for 10 years they were running unchecked.

Botting and RMT were rampant in WoW. In fact, (i have similar gaming credentials to you), WoW is the only game I have ever played where I knew first hand of people who bought gold through RMT. And this was all done through a monthly fee!

Painting botting and RMT issues as something that only small low budget companies have a problem with is lunacy.

You are mixing a system failure with a budget one.

D2 was botted to death, d3 came out had 0 protection for several months. If you started botting on day one your first account would die to the first ban-wave which was 3.5 or 4 MONTHS in. You can’t even imagine what a margin this was, when inflation was still low. The endresult was that a computer could generate in the 5 digits of money per day if it was a up-to-date one. For months just scaling down with your gp/h and inflation.

You were farming at roughly 1mil gp/h with 0 effort and risk off an autoit script on a single account. This sold for 35-40$ and over the course of months dropped down to 3$ eventually when I moved on. Gold sellers were so desperate to supply the demand that they started buying gold literally from forum strangers.

The excuses were the same - they didn’t expect, they couldn’t know, they tried their best.

WoW was botted from the start and is still botted. I checked the transfer volume on ebay 3 years back and just for germany it was over 1 million € per year. Just ebay, just germany. A really old game… you can’t even compare that to what a new trendy game dishes out in RMT volume, but you can imagine just having one d3 machine that could run 15 copies at the same time back in the day.

Traditionally wow was actually pretty easy going on the banning. You could have bots active for over a year - some people report accounts botting 24/7 breaking the 5 year mark last I checked.

I can go on, but you see the point. It doesn’t matter if it is an AAA studio or a smaller one, they dont prepare and have no clue. Getting proper consultation is achievable for a couple of thousand euros.

Bossland vs Blizzard started more than 3 years ago.

Who you know isn’t exactly the best indicator of who is buying in-game currency in what game. Also, in my 10 years of WoW, I never once felt the influence in terms of trading or AH by RMT.

That’s great that you didn’t “feel” it, but it still happened regularly.

True, the example I gave was anecdotal. But the lawsuit is real. Go look it up. You think a massive company like blizzard files a lawsuit for grins? To make a point?

No. Those 3 popular wow bots were so wildly pervasive that Blizzard felt like it was starting to affect their bottom line, so they attacked it at its source.

Maybe if Blizzard actually implemented RMT/bot prevention as IMC has done you would have “felt” it more, but less RMT/botting would have occured. Would that make you feel better? You would prefer to be unaware of the problem, rather than have it addressed? That’s just silly.

@Pappus fair enough. I guess one person producing popular bots for all of their games was enough to get blizzard’s attention =P

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Ever farmed for arcanite in vanilla and noticed something? Ever tried selling herbs and ores at reasonable prices for your work? :wink:

WoW is the reason everyone thinks of asian people when they hear gold-seller/farmer -> China-Farmer

It doesn’t really matter - take this as a friendly hint that ignorance is bliss.

The lawsuit isn’t a big deal though - it is good that it is done so that the whole matter moves jurisdictially, but the lawsuit only prevents a sale in germany. Botters aren’t really unfamiliar with the useage of VPNs so all they had to do was block the word VPN in their forum and business returned as usual with a minor inconvenience for the botters - if at all depending on the setup they run.

However to emphasize: Blizzard had to put up 1.5million in security IIRC so far just to keep the lawsuit going.

They frequently file lawsuits against private servers to “make a point” :slight_smile:

Maybe it is too soon, but another important form of “income” for them is phishing, getting someone’s account details, log in, sell everything and transfer the cash to the RMT account.

While this point surely came up when they were having a meeting and deciding which way to go, I ready to bet that it wasn’t the more important reason.
In my opinion IMC’s heart is in the right place, they DO care about the game and don’t strike me as the typic money-hungry company who makes the next wow-clone.

Not true. I can give you examples of successful companies with low budget and f2p, like Path of Exile. The thing is they KNOW how to deal with botters. They have a person specialized in that matter. Also, low population = easier control.

I figure IMC has their current system in place because they don’t want to pay employees to actively ban bots. Thinking they could set up a perfect system then just sit back and watch. Or I could be wrong.