Tree of Savior Forum

Let's Discuss Cashing Incentives, Paywall and fear of P2W

So quite a few users are going on about how the game is Pay2Win, definitions of Pay2Win and over all flaming other users over their opinion of how a business can work.

There are also several users going on about pay-walls and bring up valid and not-so valid points.

There is also those who are trying to brainstorm more reasons to cash.

This thread, will be open to reasonable discussion and debating… as I would like to see us as a community develop the cash shop in a way that the western market would love and flock to. I’ve seen many MMOs in my days adopt the cashing practices of the Eastern market and because of this fail severely in the Western market.

You’re welcome to debate with my ideas or factor in your own. Really I just want this thread to be the baseholder for us as a community to possibly drive IMC in a positive direction toward cash flow for a Western Audience.

However, not everything can be free. I’ll use my own experiences, research and those I know as a bit of weight to my words. (I used to want to be a Game Master/Moderator when I was younger as well as a 3D modeler)

You need to hire programmers, which the price can go from $35 a hour however the better he/she is at their job the more their hourly wage goes up. You have to factor that and these will be the people working with the developers mostly on fixing errors with the game caused by western changes.

A 3D modeler’s average hourly wage goes from $21 and higher, similar to the programmer the better they are at their job the more they are paid per working hour. Factor in that both of these are full time positions but that’s not all.

Game Masters or moderators get paid $13+ a hour as well and you need a lot of people in these positions as they’re the ones in charge of usually looking at what the community has to say forwarding positive feedback and bugs to the developers and programmers not to mention usually the ones behind disposing of bad players, those who break the TOS and of course… the bots we all loathe.

This isn’t all the costs people, servers have to be strong and powerful enough to handle all the people connecting to them. This cost alone I can’t even measure nor will I try to, I can just tell you it’s in the thousands per month.

There’s other costs as well, IMC is not a charity they are a business. We have to make this cash model successful and enough to pay their employees, costs and as well make them a profit.

Anyways, onto my own ideas (Some of which inspired by other peoples’!)

P2W Argument: Stats on Accessories
Nothing should be changed honestly, look at the first few posts in this thread for as to why. Originally I had a wall of text explaining that the cost should be lowered but if that were the case then the guild war incentives would be pointless. Besides it’s not like you can’t buy enchanted accessories off players or win the guild wars, right?

P2W - Premium Mounts:
I don’t know enough about this upcoming feature honestly but honestly premium mounts should only look cooler and appeal to those that want to say ride a tiger, dragon, etc. Something people would much rather ride then Bulbasaur’s ugly cousin and Leaf Raptor. You’d be surprised how superficial Western Culture is, especially for the more feminine gamers who love cute things. I even stated myself that if I could get a cute Fox to ride on while firing my pistol and crossbow I’d throw money at the screen.

P2W - Token Benefits
This is a touchy subject… Very touchy.

Keep in mind I AM a token player on Klai but on Orsha where I play with two of my best friends I have no token. I’ve experienced both ends and not having my token benefits has frustrated me severely.

Trade between Characters
Buy Shop
Max items on market at once
Tax on market sales
Number of Attributes Learnable at Once Raised
Movement Speed Bonus

Alright, so Trading Between Characters should be accessible to everyone. Team Storage should not be behind a pay wall at all. However a Free Player only has ONE slot to trade items from whereas a token player gets three as well as access to the collection that increases team storage. This means that Free Players can transfer items over but it’d take them longer because they only have one slot, this makes Token look MORE appealing without severely punishing free players. (IE: They can do it, it’s just more convenient for token.)

Shops are fine as they are, other then I personally think that free players should be given two slots to utilize whereas tokens as of the notes now have 10. Again, convenience. Also lower Free’s tax to 20%, 30 is just brutal. But it can also be left alone as the token is accessible to those who can’t spend TP so I guess it’s a fair point… Although personally I still feel 30 is too much.

The attribute thing is probably the one thing I REALLY didn’t like in those patch notes personally. I think allowing Premium Users to bypass the time limit was entirely stupid. I felt the current system was fine, 2 for tokens and 1 for free… Not too punishing again. Convenience.

Now here’s the debatable one, movement speed. I personally think this is an okay bonus for Token to keep over free player. Yes it is a stat I know but really how useful is this stat aside from making things more convenient? If your worries are related to the PvP mode we haven’t quite gotten yet, perhaps the movement speed bonus can be disabled there.
EDIT
Okay so after a lot going on this thread maybe making the movement speed bonus apply to OUT OF COMBAT only which the game does recognize is a better alternative, that way Token users can keep the convenience of moving faster but they don’t get to utilize it in combat which is a straight up advantage.

Token also gets bonus EXP, this is PERFECTLY acceptable.

So what else can we do for Token? Perhaps two channels that are Token only, premium channels if you will. When queueing on 1P or 2P for a dungeon you will still be matched to anyone on any other channel. You can argue this causes segregation but if a premium player feels a map is being infested too much by bots or just other players they can swap to their premium channel.

You see what I’m suggesting here right? I’m stressing “Convenience.”

Now as for the western market… like I said we are a VERY superficial market. We LOVE cosmetics, straight up love them from the loli lovers to the feminine gamers to the gamers who just want to make their character look cool.

However a new NPC would be needed in town… a Fashionista NPC who manages a storage purely for premium items. This Fashionista NPC’s storage is accessible on all characters as well. Can be expanded even larger with TP too of course but the size is maybe… HALF of what Storage currently is, so it’s not too much space but not too little. Allow people to expand it if they so desire and stick hair, costumes as well as companions bought with TP in here. Nothing else.

You can easily market off us with costumes, hair styles, dyes and mounts believe me on that one. If you want to even test this, do a ‘discount’ on older cosmetic items pick them at random where you slash the price by 10-20%. Make the selection of items random and don’t EVER discount your newer items while they’re still fresh on the market but if you’re a business, you knew that.

Something else that could be thrown in for possible sales is enhanced EXP tomes that are better then the standard ones but of course cost more. They last longer or give more EXP bonus. Pick your poison.

Anyways as a community I hope we can come to a reasonable and fair agreement that still will make IMC a profit but also strengthen the game in the Western Market.

Edit: Added Fashionista, Removed Scrolls, altered tax.

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Haven’t finished reading it all because it’s late (will continue in the morning), but I’ll say one thing. IIRC, IMC said the server that hosts the top guild will have their TP cap raised to 8, rather than the usual 5. It’s a HUGE incentive for people to win, because not only can they get more stuff but they can actually start buying enchant scrolls, etc.

I think that’s something a lot of people haven’t realised. If the scroll prices drop then it makes guild wars far less relevant and people aren’t going to be celebrating major guilds or on the edge of their seats hoping that their favourite guild will win, because it won’t matter as much if they don’t have something big to gain. That kind of thing willl be huge for the game.

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Yeah… that much is true but so far a lot of people are enraged that free players have no way to get a scroll and I can honestly understand SOME of the frustration. Most of my ideas are focused on cosmetics because well… most of us at least the ones with the dollars are superficial junkies.

Honestly if they left scrolls as they are and utilized the rest of my ideas I’d be fine with that too. The enchants aren’t TOO big of an advantage really but what I heard about the premium companions is they give stats too which is a big no no no!

I like your details…Good suggestions… =)

I’ll prolly be one of those who buys almost every costume… BUT I won’t here… Not esp when they eat up whatever little storage I have… I mean we can only use 1 set each time… I can’t have a whole wardrobe on my char… >.< They have to fix this…

So that’s probably not the best temptation to spend at the moment…

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I haven’t bought any of the premium costumes so far cause they don’t cater to my themes… but do they have weight on them? Cause if so that should be changed to 0. That way people can store as many costumes as they want but this falls into another issue where costumes can’t be traded to other issues another thing not really being tackled in this thread… Haha.

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I can’t imagine a whole wardrobe of costumes (of course hairstyles included) jumbled up on my char inventory, together with quest items, usables, cash items, misc items, weapons etc… If they have at least a costume wardrobe or some kind of basic storage for them, problem will be solved…

Ah well, trading is another issue altogether… I’m not touching on that…

Ah I got it, how about a Fashionista NPC who manages a storage purely for premium items? This Fashionista NPC’s storage is accessible on all characters as well. Can be expanded even larger with TP too of course but the size is maybe… HALF of what Storage currently is, so it’s not too much space but not too little.

I’m brainstorming here because you raised a legitimate concern with the superficial theme.

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Yup, I agree with most of the op points, but considering if this is true:

then, there is no need for them to lower the tp price for the scrolls coz it would be an incentive with top guilds for that server.

Tokens for me is fair game, i mean it is sold on the market, anyone who has the time to grind 500k can get a token.

But yeah, for the premium mounts with stats, that might be too much, assuming it’s true. for me, premium mounts should just look cool and that’s it. I mean nothing is sure yet so let’s not get carried away and throw the P2W argument all the time. It’s over used, and a bit “whinny”. thats my 2 cents.

Yes, that would be awesome… Just a simple storage will do… I won’t even mind paying to expand that storage just so I can collect more costumes! I’m fine with non-stats pretty items, even mounts… Just please don’t jam up my small storage and char inventory, that’s all i ask for… =P

Ah, the storage has to include mounts too! Collection of pretty cash stuff! I like! haha

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Yeah the guild war thing does need incentive really and honestly only those who are participating in such would care for the enchants to begin with. So I’m fine with the rest of the points being made a thing + Fashionista NPC I brought up earlier.

Tokens are a fair game but I think no feature should be locked behind a wall of any sort, so make the token more focused on convenience and ease of access… but give some perks such as premium channels.

Yeah the mounts are pretty unknown right now but I keep hearing them brought into the P2W argument… So far ToS really isn’t P2W at all … I’ve played P2W games, this is nothing although it can start small and then get out of control so I understand their concern and worries. The Pay-Wall does need shattered though which is why I stressed Token benefits again be catered toward convenience.

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Premium mounts don’t provide any significant stats. It’s something like +30 Def/MDef. And you can’t use them in combat at all if you’re not already a mount based class.

I agree that IMC definitely already knows what they’re doing with Enchant scrolls. The guild wars issue is fair as it stands. Hopefully it ends up with servers being fairly competitive and the 8 free TP cycling around often, otherwise it might be an issue. But even without the free TP letting you buy scrolls, good scrolls are astronomically RNG dependent. They’re more based on luck than they are on having enough money to buy them. If you really want a good hat, then you’re gonna buy it for an extraordinary amount of silver.

I think the market tax is fine. Yeah, it’s brutal, but selling things on the market is absolutely optional, and tokens can be bought with silver. I think that trading between players should be possible without a token (and apparently that’ll be happening), but team storage being limited to token users makes sense and is fair. And again, you can buy a token with silver.

I DID say premium items, that should include the TP mounts… but let’s see what others feel. I’ll add the Fashionista bit to the original post.

Then why have them at all? It obviously annoys players.

Alright so I’m gonna remove the enchant thing from the OP, there’s plenty of fair points why it shouldn’t be changed.

well purely for aesthetics. If it looks cool people would pay for that.

Not sure if you’re talking about the mounts or the stats.

If you’re talking about the mounts: Because maybe I wanna ride around on a cute pig mount even though I’m not a cataphract?

If you’re talking about the stats: I genuinely don’t know. Seems silly to me.

Due to you and many others I’ve removed the bit about enchant scrolls, it’s definitely clear they know what they’re doing there and that detail actually escaped me cause I was trying to understand both perspectives.

As for the market tax… it’s really debatable but it’s a feature that can be lived with. So I’ll be editing that a bit too thanks to you.

The Premium companions though… Unlike accessories can only be gotten for TP, that’s actually pretty unfair even if it is a minor difference. Like stated the Western Market is very focused on cosmetics so if it just looks cool or cute people would buy it, like the alpaca posted in the leaks? I’d totally buy TP to ride that and shoot with instead of … that ugly bulbasaur cousin.

They probably added those stats because it doesn’t look cute… Lol…

Just make it free then and make a cute/cool one and put it for TP, problem solved.

The leaks, only two of those are really ugly as far as I saw… there was a pig and an alpaca and two that looked like actual monsters in the game.

The stats yes. These “negligible” stats that no one seems to want to remove yet are okay with having them in despite them doing “nothing” and only rile people up.