now i wonder if the exploit can return an item from its previous state… why not try it on their accounts? LOL
And this is the problem with IMC clearly not testing their designs and others who don’t play tanking characters in this game.
DAMAGE MITIGATION IS NOT ENOUGH
You NEED to be able to do DPS to maintain aggro, or provoke needs a serious overhaul, or we need more skills that explicitly draw aggro. They want us to clearly tank instead of do damage, but you need to be able to do damage to tank. I don’t understand why this is the hardest concept in the world for them to apparently understand
I’m fairly well geared and statted and can’t grab or hold aggro from any DPS class with similar gear in any content I’ve participated in where the fight(s) last more than a minute. This guardian change just makes the problem worse.
So what exactly is the point of damage mitigation if you aren’t taking damage anyway because you can’t get aggro?
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Can I ask what your build/stat spread is currently?
thank you proxied
for explaining the problem i pointed out in such a simple way
this is also a problem in reverse for the pure dps builds that are stealing the aggro but have 6k hp
Going to assume you mean me (but there’s no reply notification so sorry if not)
sword 1 pelt 1 barb 3 fencer 2 and
Ahh the DEX based tank, this is the one stat spread I’ll agree was hit hard by the guardian change.
Full CON tanks that had no damage to begin with, are not changed. They were suffering to begin with.
IMC is pushing for mitigation based, mostly STR tanks, which is why you would have damage being mostly STR even with Guardian.
Gonna make the FFXIV comparison again since I’m a tank main on XIV (of PLD, Drk, and War).
FFXIV tank stances
Trade 20/25% of damage for 2x aggro generation.
Aggro is Damage x Threat modifiers, or Healing + overhealing.
In Tree of Savior, no Overhealing occurs.
“Tank Stance” is gain 6x aggro generation for no damage loss.
No bonus threat skills other than Provokes attribute.
Swashbuckling is a forced aoe Hate, but doesn’t increase actual aggro so once it wears off you control if you haven’t done sufficient damage.
Aggro being a product of damage is fairly standard for MMO’s in general.
Since we know we just have to be 1/6th+1 of the damage potential of other classes this is fairly easy to balance.
Make sure Swordman DPS (from a balance perspective) doesn’t dip below 1/6th +1. Ideally it should be more then that to allow a comfortable margin of error.
Most swordsmen won’t find this to be a problem, but of course if you go Squire or heaven forbid Templar, you’re now taking ranks with Zero Dps contribution, which means you can start falling behind the minimum 1/ 6th dps requirement.
They can easily keep Pel’s damage within 1/6th+1 of Rank 2-4 classes (its certainly higher then that mind you) but obviously ranks 5-7 with no damage skills being gained is going to be a large kick in the teeth.
My Doppel doesn’t have a rank in Pel.
I put on Provoke hit pain barrier and use Pouncing, I have Aggro.
They could make changes to make Squire more appealing in general for the party slot but overall, It’s hard to sympathize with the Pel Squires, it would be a bad tank in any game. Now squires getting invited to party, give foods, and then dropped out is lame. Given how they’ve purposefully given Alchemist a little more combat potential with Humonculous, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are more buffs to come (later on as the game continues to evolve) to make Squire a better teammate.
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Perhaps they should make it such like when guardian is active, it puts a debuff on the mob where all attacks against it (pelt/party members), some of the aggro generated will channel towards the pelt?
This makes it a more attractive tank skill where we can still generate aggro while sacrificing the damage. Currently I don’t even use guardian cuz I can’t out aggro the dpsers with guardian on with the weakened damage. (Pelt1>Hoplite2>squire2)
Just give an attribute to Guardian. “You generate more thread from your skills, +3 aoe ratio, +2-3 aoe defense ratio”. Maybe unlock it from peltasta 2 or 3.
STR tanks will have it even worse unless supported by stone skin or something like that because of the knockback mechanics and skill cancellation issues with swordsman classes, it’s why I even went dex (and fencer) in the first place because getting knocked around 24/7 means even less DPS than taking the 300 less damage or something. The difference between my build and full str is hardly a difference:
to
And is certainly not enough to cover aggro loss. I think it’s even less of a difference factoring guardians 14% phys damage loss afterwards since I’ll lose less max by being dex but idk
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i am laughing so hard 
ohhhhh i get it!! im supposed to take the DAMAGE/ARMOR PEN stats to tank!!!
it all makes sense now!!!
■■■■ my life
Aggro is a product of damage in almost every MMO, and Provoke literally states that its boosting the aggro created by your damage.
Taking 3 ranks with no damage is obviously going to be a considerable loss to threat generation.
Ranks 5-7 is literally over 100 levels with no new damage coming in.
They can make changes to accommodate Squire , but this is mostly a Squire specific problem since they’re just buffers.
Unless they want to completely remove threat as a real mechanic, by making provoke something like 20* times aggro generation.
There is a large difference because of the amount of crit rate you can get without statting DEX.
Also with pain barrier cards, and pain barrier in general, as well as a well timed C, there are no issues with a majorily STR based swordsman. I can say this, because I’m doing it now without the card of course. I don’t get knocked around, and neither did I get knocked around as a full CON tank. It just takes some getting used to to time C, or jump over ground based wave AoEs. It’s definitely more DPS.
That said, DEX build tanks usually end up with Fencer, and with Fencer C3 getting a crit resist down debuff and crit attack up buff, that should offset guardian by quite a lot.
But we’re not arguing about what’s better, as builds are also a determining factor. The truth is the minimal STR that DEX build tanks have, is hit harder with guardian, than a full CON or majorily STR based build. That is what IMC is pushing for, it isn’t wrong, and more is needed, but is definitely a step in the right direction for once.
well ■■■■ i forgot all the dex fencers that existed
literally the 2 most played tank builds got rekt
pelt 2 rode 2 fencer 2s
and squire 3 pelt 3s
G freakin G
Not really?
When taking serious physical damage. Guardian is now a reliable and potent defensive cooldown. It costs you offensive damage, but dead people don’t do damage. This is a defensive buff, that can be highly valued in specific situations and when its not necessary you turn it off. You already do the same deal with High-Guard.
This wont stop Fencers from tanking at all either because Fencers deal considerable damage (well not aoe).
the fencer who said they are having troubles is making me question your point
if we go by your logic the best tank is a pelt 1 and then 6 circles of dps skills with almost pure str
because damage is tank
so now not only are the dps swordies needing pelt 1 but the tank swordies need all the dps circles
literally the entre tree is pigeonholed
best tank is HIGHLANDER for having the 3x better block move with 0 penality
trololol
Tbh the guardian change was a bit uncalled for. Maybe IMC’s intention was to make pelt has easier time to reach that “1 damage taken” point. Except for the fact that its already relatively easy to reach, even without the guardian change, with 220 plate armors + aspersion.
As negative as it sounds, might as well delete guardian skill altogether. It provides nothing to damage-mitigation based tanker AND it actually hinders evasion-based tanker to maintain aggro.
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I’m pretty much capped out on that unless I go for level 7 gems which isn’t going to happen. Both of those spreadsheet results takes my current gear in to consideration
Yes this could be the turning point for sure, been saying that for a while/agreeing with it, but the question is can we even get those cards in KR yet? I forget what monster they came from but I don’t think I’ve seen any screenshots of anyone using them. Does it have an internal cooldown? Or do they just infinitely work
Well this is going to sound counter intuitive to tanking I guess, but this requires a shield. That’s one thing I didn’t take in to consideration when making the spreadsheet comparison, I kept my dagger stats there. Without dex I would HAVE to use a shield when tanking, but with the dex I can get away with a karacha dagger in just about every situation. So then you also have to decide whether you use a crit rate gem or block gem in your shield. I’ll still keep it crit rate for the updated result. All results also excluded the additional medium target damage (Because…I forgot it anyway)
Yeah, even less of a difference now lol
And another edit: Oops forgot you lose 15% damage to pierce when equipped with a shield, so then it becomes:
I would agree, but I can’t say this for sure without seeing actual skill data first. As far as we know and as far as a track record dictates, epee stance might last for just one hit or something stupid
So yeah I don’t think this change helps much at all and don’t agree with it in the slightest
For bosses?
Often not having Pel at all is better for bosses. When these bosses have telegraph abilities you can actively avoid.
Peltasta’s niche is redirecting significant amount of enemies towards it, and then mitigating that damage with its defensive prowess.
This works best not for bosses but trash mobs.
If you can kill these in the time of swashbucklings effect then you don’t even need to generate additional aggro.
Let’s say we’re running the generic Saiuliu mission.
You do your Umbo Blow stuff and then Hold C on the Golem.
I hit pain barrier, as a precaution and then hit Pouncing.
I’m taking aggro under Provoke, now I’m just to jump and Slash during its attacks, and use skills inbetween.
Everything that you are, has become irrelevant because the boss attacks can be actively avoided while dealing damage, which lets me hold aggro.
Now we step into a place where we pull 25 mobs. You now ■■■■ all over me in efficiency because you can control a vast amount of targets, and minimize that damage while we destroy them in the small amount of time in which you have control of them.
Pel works best at handling quantities of physical damage you cannot reasonably avoid, most bosses do not fall into that issue.
So you grab a Pel C3, you slap Squire C3 on it, and then are bad at bosses. It’s a no brainer, they’re not currently suited to being monsters at bossing outside of spamming Swashbuckling as a means to hold it.
You my be capped, but with nearly full STR, lvl 7 gems (I have 3), 2 x Sissels, Virtov leather gloves, level 10 hoplites finestra, I should still be dealing more damage than a high DEX tank, while retaining mitigation through having a shield.
I’m not certain, but it’s not necessary, just an addition if you can’t press a well timed C, or jumping out of the way for a second.
You also have to consider damage shields like Otrava/Ledas. Though I feel there’s so much damage output that Aias is more useful.