Tree of Savior Forum

kTOS General Thread (keep all in-game discussion here)

General Discussion
#5155

Yes, but also, the missions ( the ones available in mercenary post in fedimian ) have monsters that scale to the highest lvl party member. This is a problem, as you auto-queue with someone who is 15-20 levels higher, and then the monsters are then too hard. It wouldn’t be a problem that you are in a party with someone 15-20 levels higher if the monsters were the average lvl of the party.

So, if someone lvl 120 and lvl 138 queue, they could party together, but the monsters should be lvl 129 instead of being 138 ( and causing the lvl 120 to have a really hard time ).

If the auto-finder is too restrictive on party lvl it might take too long to find a party, so I think this would work out better for everyone.

1 Like
#5156

The current PvP Arena is system is just faulty. It tries to turn the game into a pseudo-MOBA by attempting to equalize everyone to the same level and no equipment.

The problem is, this is an MMO game. The time invested, how much you levelled a character, and what equipment you wear MUST be part of the PvP experience. Yes, it’s meant to be unfair, because people who played more deserve to be better/stronger. That’s how MMOs work.

The whole concept of the current arena is faulty. It allows things such as Wugushi poisons that can kill anyone to work without restriction, but at the same time you’re not allowed to use dispellers/detox that would easily save you from being 1-shot. It nulifies a bunch of interesting mechanics in the game, such as building around elemental resistances to counter certain classes, or having multiple armor sets against different kinds of foes.

It’s impossible to build around certain mechanics that can only be attained with equipment, such as AoE Defense Ratio and Magical Defense/Tanking. You’re removing half of the game’s features and then wondering why everything is unbalanced and broken.

The current Arena has to be go. Completely removed. It just doesn’t work at a conceptual level. Match-like PvP should be party-queue only, have full access to gear, and be objective based. As for more casual, traditional PvP, just give players what everyone MMO has: An open access map that’s all PvP all the time, with no rules. Several access gates so people don’t get spawn killed.

As for the balance itself, some skills obviously need to work differently in PvP than they do in PvE. Instant 15 seconds Sleep from Wizard3, 15 seconds Stun from Quarrel Shooter3 without ANY sort of limiters, Cataphracts Impaling enemies and carrying them while keeping their absurd speed, impossible to resist knockdowns from Falconer Hovering. All of those things are balanced around PvE but totally unfair in PvP. Rather than nerfing them, they should just have different limiters and modifiers against player character. The half-freeze duration on Cryo skills was a step in the right direction, but you guys have to go much further.

Or else PvP just becomes a game of who can completely disable the other guy faster.

6 Likes
#5157

I hate to be negative, but this really isn’t the game where Ranked Arena PvP is better when it’s not standardized. With how high gear can be fortified and the effects on certain red-tier items, you stand to lose the interest of far more players making it a no-limits thing than what it currently is now. GvG, PvP maps, Arena without rankings-- those things can have it done that way, but the concept of the current Arena is fine the way it is.

If I find a Dragoon in Town who placed in the Top-10, I’d like to know that he got there mostly from his class choices and skill playing his character, not because all his gear is above +30 and that he has the 0.001% RNG-drop Spear used to stab Jesus Christ.

16 Likes
#5158

Amen to that :sunglasses:

#5159

Standardizing/equalizing players means you completely remove any elements of preparation, as well as any equipment-based intelligence. Suppose I make a build that’s pretty good overall but it’s easily counterable by 3 other builds. Instead of just hoping I won’t come across those three(it will happen), I can choose to gear myself in order to mitigate the advantage they have over me.

With equalization I just don’t have that option. My classes’ faults are there and there is absolutely nothing I can do to improve myself. That’s the complete opposite of an MMO game, where the goal is to invest time so that you can improve your character. The +30 Gear and the RNG-drop spear used to stab Jesus Christ must’ve taken months, maybe years for that Dragoon to attain, so why isn’t he entitled to using it? Why would people dump time(and money) into a game for a long period if time if they’re not improving in any tangible way?

Equalization, standandization, and “equipment/stat fairness” just aren’t part of the MMO genre. They’re things found in RTS and MOBA games. Just because MOBAs are the most popular video games in the current age doesn’t mean that everything has to resemble them. Not everything has to be eSports.

10 Likes
#5160

PVE : work hard for your gear (aka. grind for hours)

PVP: git gud.

makes sense to me.

2 Likes
#5161

Yeah, there’s not always going to be enough players in the queue, so it’s better to do something like this so lower level players can be useful to the group. Another option would be limiting the level penalty during auto-finder missions, so the monsters would be 138, but when the 120 player hits one, damage calculations would act like the monster was only level 129. When the 138 player attacks, the monsters act like they’re 138.

With the new exp bonus, leveling relies too heavily on dungeons. Maybe they could look for ways to make grouping up in the outdoor world more attractive in between dungeons.

1 Like
#5162

I agree with this as well. Doing dungeon runs over and over isn’t really that fun either ( and the current dungeons are pretty bare bones ). There should be more varied content to level up.

2 Likes
#5163

You’ve got the right idea. People just want to to do dungeons and missions all the way. Meanwhile all the monsters in those beatiful fields with excellent music go unnoticed because there’s just other, faster content.

Grinding in the game world needs to be a thing. Having a dungeon every 15-20 levels is detrimental to the game.

2 Likes
#5164

grinding was a thing back then lol
many people complained about the “demon prison grind” and the 150 - 175 grind wall.

then IMC went ahead and gave us tons of dungeons

guess you cant please everyone :neutral_face:

1 Like
#5165

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

1 Like
#5166

i was just sayin that we used to grind instead of do dungeon raids for optimum exp lol

never said anything about grinding being boring or bad or it being the end all be all.
and yes i agree Tos has tons of room to improve.

#5167

The problem with Grind Prison wasn’t that you had to grind. The problem was that there were no alternatives to grinding in the 16x, 17x, and 18x range of the game. It was literally the last good spot in the entirety of iCBT2. So you were forced to stay there way, way after it started hitting you with a 30~50% exp penalty because of level gap.

We need more grinding location variety. Not grinding alternatives.

And I don’t see how doing missions and dungeons is any less mindless grinding than open field. You just want your single player experience where nobody bothers you and you don’t have to compete for spawns.

4 Likes
#5168

I remember IMCgames once said TOS core gameplay will stay in outdoor zones, but right now I only see people spend most of their time to do dungeons and daily missions.

I love the feeling when you spent hours or days to farm items to unlock/craft something that you wanted so bad. I hope IMCgames will implement contents like this.

6 Likes
#5169

Dungeons are grinding too. The problem is that it removes you from the open world, and you’re just in an instance where you’re only interacting the the 4 other people in that instance. Also, you just run the same route, making it far more boring than grinding where there are random spawns and you move around the map, with different people and interactions that are possible. I also don’t like timed spawns on grinding maps, as this has a similar issue. People just camp the timed spawn, and you just sit and wait rather than move around.

The open world maps need to be more viable for grinding, with increased spawn and challenging mobs. Instance level mobs should be present on certain maps, providing a challenge that parties can take on.

4 Likes
#5170

I get tired of the WoW quests and DGs after about an hour a day in each. But I could just chill in one of those event dungeons or in the world zones I like and be happy all day. And if the mobs are on the dangerous side that makes me even more happy. I want to be able to bite off more then I can chew from time to time then make some correct decisions to win or at least come out alive. And you know occasionally die if I do something really stupid.

I maybe an exception… But I have to say I really love those public dungeons in particular with the hidden events,buffs, and other goodies. And I want to throw my vote in for more of them. And just more parallel content I think that really helps make the game better. And it’s even better if you have the areas vary by type of monsters so different classes will seek out a specific zone that have mobs that they are strong against.

2 Likes
#5171

woah calm down lol, i never loaded my opinion into what i said, i was just stating that we used to grind demon prison
since you said that people are doing dungeons all day now instead killing stuff outside

and yes i agree with more grinding spots, tons of people wanted heavier spawn rates in other areas, they did that with dina bee farm and some other maps and nerfed demon prison so i guess they are going in the right direction

#5172

I think there just needs to be a little less fear of making outdoor zones good. Even if you have something like the beach in RO with the seal clubbing clubs. People still got bored and want to do other zones. There maybe an optimum awesome outdoor zone that’s just great for a quick few levels. But as long as the parallel content has it’s own great loot or a particular type of monster that’s weak against a type of class people will still spread out. Leave the beach to the guys with lightning spells and spammy AoEs I say! I’ll go punch peach trees and be happy as a clam.

2 Likes
#5173

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

#5174

Correct, and it also removes the ability of players who are far more lucky than others and have a bottomless-wallet to stomp the Arena with their over-enhanced gear. You can not like the concept of standardizing in MMORPG’s, but I’m sure you realize how allowing that in Ranked Arena is going to ruin it for most. Yes, you lose the ability of being able to switch your gear around so you’re less vulnerable to a Pyro-Elementalist, but you also gain the ability to not be matched up against the guys who spend $2k+ USD every month in the Cash Shop and sells items/costumes so they have the funds to deck everyone of their characters out as much as possible.

It’s mainly only the gear that is standardized, and your stat distribution estimates itself to what it would be @ 200. I do think certain gear-effects should pass over into the Arena like the ones on these (And apparently some already do):

And for the line “That’s the complete opposite of an MMO game”, that fact only applies to PvE. This isn’t a faction-wars MMO, and although it has PvP activities, those things are minor in this game. That Dragoon can still make use of his OP character in PvE, GvG, PvP maps, and a freestyle-Arena that doesn’t place players on Rankings. But Ranked PvP is one of the things that he can not make use of those equipments in. Sure, it could’ve taken him Months or even Years to gear that character, but he wouldn’t be investing all that time & money into it just so he could use it in a limited-time PvP Arena that only pops up a few times a day.

Also, me dropping a couple thousands on the game and selling Costumes/Resets and then just buying all the rare gears and fortifying them after focusing on only leveling and no gear or money hunting makes the whole no-limits PvP thing even less-likely to happen. There’s just too much improvement that can be done through equipment ultimately involving RNG/Cash, and too many levels to make this a good idea.

Correct. But a 3-4 time-slots a day Arena does not qualify as everything. I do hope they add open PvP maps or channels in the future, but this is one of the things best left-alone. I’ve played far too many games where the PvP Arena hype dies down around half a year later because of power-players, and this games Arena can fall in the same category. Improve the standardized-Arena, yes, remove it, no.
You gotta bite the bullet on this one, Pan-chan.

7 Likes