@GM_Francis @GM_Sebastian @Staff_Julie
Alrighty then, captcha is a go. @Nyyppa and I agree. 
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Yeah, that’s good enough of a proportion of players supporting it. All the important players seem to agree on it as well (I’m currently lvl 25 btw) 
I’ve been taking it slow this time. I could’ve rushed and been near 100 by now with my usual leveling path that I did in iCBTs. However I wanted to try all the new stuff, so I did Klaipeda up to Tenet, then went to Orsha.
Also really wanted to get attributes up earlier, rather than later. Currently level 33, with 180+ level 2 xp cards to pop and still doing low level areas in Orsha (level 29 zone now). Got my Concentrate attribute to level 40 already and my Gung Ho attribute to level 20+.
Was also spending a bit of time doing collections. Just trying to enjoy all the content, rather than rushing levels, since it’s not limited playtime anymore, like it is in CBTs.
Any solution takes effort from IMC, be it captchas, be it a massage box, or be it a limit. And of course a bot/macro user can work around any limitations.
This topic is not about macro users, it’s about guys who put a stone on the Z key. Which is not even forbidden in the current rules. You can worry about macro users after solving this problem… The current game makes it so easy that ppl don’t even have to use macros to get the lazy train running.
But I know that I’m talking to a wall here, there will always be somebody who argues that this thing “must be illegal” because it takes no effort. Of course it should be illegal, but in fact it is not and afaik there has never been a statement from IMC about this on this forum. The point is that as long as it’s not forbidden in some rules and the game mechanics allow players to do it, they will do it. That’s common sense and knowing the internet. Ppl in MMOs do min-maxing all the time and they are good at it. As long as they are not even told that it’s illegal by a rule or at least a gm / staff member, there is not even a point in arguing about how to prevent it. (And remember, I’m referring to the guys who put a stone on the keyboard, not actual macro users…)
[off-topic]Similar thing for me too. I’ve been so busy with university stuff that I haven’t had time to google up all the currently known aspects of mage builds. I don’t want to rush up right away and end up regretting after few months.
It’s also usually better let the big wave go before you so there would be more quest mobs available and you can just google up all the bugs and possible solutions if you end up with problems doing some quests. You’ll lose only few days of head start this way and end up saving lots of time when you don’t have to compete that much 
[/off-topic]
@Brobbulus I kind of understand what you’re saying. Usually these kinds of situations that most players would consider abusing the game mechanics in a way that is not intended are forbidden in rather vague ways in the Terms of service, though. It would give too much bad ideas to lazy players if all the known ways are listed in some exclusive list. And it would also prevent taking action right away when new ones are found if the list was exclusive.
Something like:
"In case an issue arises which is not stated in this Terms of Service, IMC Games shall have full discretion and authority in resolving such issue. "
or: “You need to report any game errors, bugs and other game play issues to IMC Games. You shall not abuse them for your own benefits nor to cause grievances to others, and pass this information to others who may abuse them for their benefits.”
or: "You shall not abuse or exploit abnormal AI, items or quests to obtain illicit gains.
or: “You may not acquire illicit gain through the means of deception or unfair methods.”
These are the parts from Terms of Service most people would interpret meaning that z-bots are not okay to use even though it’s not explicitly mentioned. At least I wouldn’t give any sympathy if accounts starts to get banned because of cheating in this or some similar way.
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I see your approach and I agree that beeing too exact in the rules brings further problems with itself by design, but:
- “In case an issue arises which is not stated in this Terms of Service, IMC Games shall have full discretion and authority in resolving such issue.”
-> Seems fair, and it is totally ok. It could be used on this issue, but does not give any statement on it. - “You need to report any game errors, bugs and other game play issues to IMC Games. You shall not abuse them for your own benefits nor to cause grievances to others, and pass this information to others who may abuse them for their benefits.”
-> Same as above. However, I think “game errors, bugs and other game play issues” doesn’t qualify for this situation. - “You shall not abuse or exploit abnormal AI, items or quests to obtain illicit gains.”
-> It’s not about AI, nor about items, nor about quests in this particular case. - “You may not acquire illicit gain through the means of deception or unfair methods.”
-> It’s not deception, nor is it unfair in this particular case, because it’s a mechanic that everybody can use.
I appreciate your effort in trying to find the corresponding parts in the TOS, but I think right now there is just not one formula in them that covers the problem that the mechanic of infinite attacking while holdign the z-key brings with itself.
So, for me it looks this way now: It’s not cool to do it, but (arguably) legal.
I think it’s a bit unfair. It’s against what people commonly understand as playing the game. It prevents lower tier players hunting that same mob because some high level player have parked there just to afk and would one-shot the mob within a second it re-spawns. You could always change the channel but it limits the areas available for normal players and this will increase the competition on the remaining resources.
It also allows generating large amounts of silver in short times if you’re multi-accounting and this is what makes those goldselling sites possible. It might also cause hyperinflation which might not be that desirable effect either.
And what benefits would it give? Well some lazy-ass bum wouldn’t need to take any challenges when playing as he could afford the best gear available and all the skill enchants he need by only leaving his computer on playing on itself during nights and work hours.
And for competitive players this would mean that they might feel compelled to do the same if this practice becomes common, just to be on the same level with others.
Do you think the vast majority of players would want this to become rather compulsory feature if you want to play this game?
The solution to this problem is exactly what blizzard did to reduce the impact. Man hours aren’t enough to combat this problem, you need an auto solution which shouldn’t be hard for a competent developer team.
An algorithm to detect patterns is the solution to the problem. Auto mute and auto suspend.
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Of course not. Also, I am not trying to defend z-bots, but I think we need a detailed analysis of what the root problem is, because that is what’s needed before a good solution can be invented.
Knowledge is Power. And that also applies to IMC. 
@Nyyppa @Solkazo @Skygrinder @staff
Also, from a management POV: If the practice of jamming the Z-key is not appreciated, work needs to be done.
- Making an official statement and a change to the rules costs 30 Minutes max.
- Introducing a client-side limit of max consecutivy attacks sounds like 5 hours work + tests + rollout.
- Introducing a report system takes continuous work because you need to evaluate every report before taking action.
So, option one is obvioulsy the first thing to do. But that is not forcing anything. Option three is good, because imho it’s needed anyways for dealing with actual bots and macro users.
The trick is that the options two and three synergize very well with each other: Option two forces repeated input. So after this you can be sure that anyone who looks like a z-bot is either active (and thus 100% legit) or using illegal tools.
Also let’s say 80% of the ppl who are z-botting right now will stop doing so after options one and two are introduced and only 20% will resort to bots and macros, which will leave you with much less work to be done with managing the reports.
It all comes down to the “grey zone” issue as long as there has not been an official statement on this. I would appreciate any official statement (legal / illegal / grey zone) on this issue, as it would provite infomration security.
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It’s all fine, but in the end, I think that captcha is the best solution for all of it (z-jammers, bots, macro users, goldsellers)
Even if some get super smart about it and somehow get past it, you can deal with a few of them manually.
I think it’s the cheapest and most effective solution. I didn’t mention it mostly in this thread, because people cry about it and don’t want it. But honestly, screw those people.
Stfu, stop for 3 seconds and type in 5 symbols. It is A BIT (Really, just a LITTLE bit) annoying to do, but it’s way better than having these abominations messing up the game.
I hate captcha. That’s a nightmare. Seriously, a captcha during important moment is too obstructive.
Z mash can be prevented by simple code. There is no need for gm and such.
We don’t need captcha to identify gold seller.
Also, it’s not that hard for a well designed bot to anti the captcha method. Even if I can think of some. You should probably search on how to counter captcha for this info.
Seriously, will we ever reach the point with bot infesting the game with the game being this disaster now?
If people want to do this, they should be able to. He is not cheating, he is simply using the system to his advantage, plain and simple
I would rather these people be left alone, yes they may be a tad annoying, however they are not exactly cheating. People will always find a way to exploit a game, and i say, let them do it. See there is a fine line between cheating and exploting. Cheating is the act of Altering/modifying/changing the experience of the game from the developer’s original intent. Exploiting is the act of using the system that is already in place to gain a advantage.
So you mean to say to suspend players who are using the system to their advantage? What do you gain from them being suspended? If that is the way they like to play the game should we not leave them be? Do we want to have a nanny (algorithm) govern how you HAVE to play a game? I thought this was a mmorpg where you play via YOUR play style, no?
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That is true, but who exactly is to say that this z-botting is something that the developers had intended would happen?
Do keep in mind that there have been a few changes (see Big Red Kepa in Miner’s Village) that were implemented to prevent such behavior. If such an act was intended, then no such countermeasures were necessary.
Honestly I don’t get why people even bother. Just leave people who like to play a set way alone… Or should we have rules for every single little thing? Not hate against you, its simply a question for this thread as a whole, seriously… sheesh
I whole heartedly agree with your view on this matter
I would be VERY unhappy if this was implemented, this game should be played the way the user perceives it should be played. There is nothing in the rules against this. Is this not a mmorpg? Or is this one of those games where the player is forced to do a set amount of things in a set amount of ways. Am i wrong to say mmorpgs are meant to be played with a open mind?
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Just because you are against it, doesn’t mean someone should be banned for doing so. Are you going to crap all over someone’s play style simply because you don’t agree? If it interferes with you playing the game, then FINE, i suppose, move them to a dedicated channel for it, but don’t go around wanting peps to be banned for their play style
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