Tree of Savior Forum

I've now realized what is by far the biggest turn off for this game

Dear, you’re the only one with no argument here. You just keep telling others that they have no arguments while saying nonsense.

Post is here vids of you playing Rogue, Kabba, Oracle and Catagoon. Since you say that they are good and wonderful classes I’m sure you have intensive experience with them. And since all classes are viable and playable within the current content, let me see how these classes rock in Sol Miki/WB.

If, by any chance, you have no examples I feel satisfying, it just means you have no arguments, following your own logic.

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This was your argument btw.

I’ve given plenty example of changes, and I know it’s impossible for you to believe this but people have rerolled characters due to these changes. (me included, IMPOSSIBLE!)

Your only counter argument is “no I don’t think these changes were big enough”

EDIT: Mind you he completely glossed over paladin, one example is enough to destroy his argument but nop

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I agree with most of your posts but i have to say something here under the argument “how” they communicate.

the fact they do way more than other K MMORPG is just not enough if tos is going down in the steam charts

  • Plague Doc BDS took 4 months to get a public clarification ,
  • Cataphract since after the combat rework has unacceptable damage, thanks god they intend to buff it (same with Dragoon)
  • linker + pyro’s fireball was nerfed heavily, correctly, but they were not given rank reset
  • Oblique shot + Circling expand was fixed correctly as it was OP, but exactly after the end of the reset event without comunicating

What I mean is that if i invest in a class that has a cool interaction with another one i don’t know if it will take 1 day to nerf it (oblique+circling 25 million attribute), Months (pyro+linker) or never (Murm-Shinobi)

Another thing is that from Novemeber 2016 we had only one Q&A, in April, before they were weekly

this game’s just a bunch of dumb ideas slapped together at this point. i just came to see if they ever fixed the bug where the character’s head spins around like the girl from the exorcist. there’s no certainty from minute to minute about what the fundamental systems of the game will look like. last i played i was waiting for rank 9, but come to find out there’s just this weird cutoff point where the basic idea changes. then it seems like even if there’s a cool concept in one of the classes, they’re just a path to whatever you’re forced into… like, “i want to play as a monk!” too bad, you’ll be playing as an inquisitor and wielding a hammer. (edit: just wanted to say how disappointed i was the first time i saw a monk put their hammer away to punch something…) “okay then, i’ll be a dual-wielding ninja!” you can either be a gladiator with a shield (edit: and a stupid looking helmet), or a lancer with a spear… aaaanyway, you’d think that having all these choices, you could build the character you want to build. you can’t.

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Aehm, first of all, look at these statements:

Unfortunately, we also understand that not all of our players are happy with their class trees and builds. Some classes show their true beauty the way we intended them to and are consequently loved by many, but some classes weren’t as lucky and have often been ignored

We at the dev team feel the need to reduce this ‘class disparity’.

We have implemented five class patches so far. These are the goals we have been aiming to achieve with them:

1 Each class should have its own characteristics and roles.

  1. Adjustments should be carefully planned to avoid one class dominating its rank or being left out, and to achieve a fairly equal distribution of classes in each rank.

  2. Rather than letting one class become too good to the point of self-reliance, we should devise a plan to encourage different types of classes to work together and develop new play strategies.

We’ll go through all 3 points for you to understand through e.g. the example of Kabbalist vs Plague Doctor.

1st point: Plague Doctor has it’s specific role, it spreads debuffs and prevents debuffs.
But what does Kabbalist do? Play with numbers? The debuff skills are so badly designed, they don’t even stack! It could’ve been a good Class, but from the current gameplay way, it’s practically impossible to provide meaningful support with Kabbalist, as people just bash monsters like no tomorrow rather than waiting a few seconds for Kabbalist to do his magic.

2nd point: Do you seriously believe there are ± as many Kabbalist C2/C3s as there are Plague Doctor C2/C3? Their goal is to balance Ranks within a Class tree, but they didn’t do anything to make Kabbalist equal to Plague Doctor, especially in the damage department.
2175% Merkabah vs. 4260% Black Death Steam per overheat e.g. is just one example for such unbalancing, as Plague Doctor is also a support-focused Rank 7 Class, there is no reason to make it that much stronger than Kabbalist.
This is basically the reason why Kabbalist is so unpopular, because it’s highly inferior to Plague Doctor (even with the new Kabbalist C3 attributes accounted).

3rd point: Plague Doctor is the antithesis to this statement. The Class can do everything, it has a Pain Barrier skill[Methadone], debuff removal, debuff immunity, strong damage skills, a rapid healing skill. That’s all you want from a Cleric Class, it doesn’t have to rely on any other Class to bring damage or support and thus is completely free to choose its path.
Its skills also aren’t hindered/removed by other Class skills/minions,so it works well together with every Class.

Now looking at Kabbalist, this Class is on permanent I.V. infusion of other Classes,
as it doesn’t provide any damage [Merkabah is the worst Cleric damage skill and heavily bugged], its damage multiplication debuffs are triggered&removed by every single attack/skill (including e.g. zombies autoattacks and bonus damage attributes on buff skills [e.g. Arcane Energy, Prophecy]) and Ein Sofs effect doesn’t fill up your max HP, so you need a healing skill or pots to benefit from the max HP boost.

If we talk about Class synergy, Kabbalist also loses out to Plague Doctor, simply due to the fact that

  1. Clerics don’t really benefit from higher max HP [Paladin C3 might when taking damage for team mates] and the SP recovery is a pretty generic effect, not a synergy

  2. the damage multiplication debuffs suffer from the fact that most Cleric skills only deal damage in multiple hits, which are pretty weak individually; the exceptions are Sadhus Astral Body Explosion [weak attack value,though], Oracles Twist of Fate [damage cap makes this synergy weaker than needed,though, and the combination in a single build(Oracle3>Kabba2/3) is impossible till at least Rank 10], Inquisitors God Smash [combination in a single build with full effect(Kabba3>Inqui1) is possible from Rank 10 on] and Taoists Divine Punishment Charm [combination in a single build impossible till at least Rank 10,best effect at Rank 12].

There are a lot of synergies between several Classes, e.g. Paladin & Inquisitor [Conviction + God Smash, Judgement+Smite] Miko & Dievdirbys [Clap + any statue]or Taoist & Krivis [Storm Calling + Zaibas], but none for Kabbalist.

I’m not saying that Kabbalist is a bad Class, but it surely doesn’t stand its ground as a Rank 7 Class (if its position in the Class tree was exchanged with Bokor e.g., it would’ve made more sense) that currently ends your build. Every other Rank 7/Rank 8 Class is better simply due to the fact that there is no content that requires the support Kabbalist brings.
Or did you ever see someone asking for a Kabbalist to run ET/challenge mode or farm items?

Unique support my foot, the support is so bad that people rather play any other Cleric Class than Kabbalist, the few Kabbalists usually only play PVP/GVG.

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@crevox boi you need to read.

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I still have lots of hopes for this game. When they finish with the rank system and if they implement good pvp system and good end game design then this game can do well imo. Because this game is very polished in terms of graphics for this genre and this is the only recent game for this genre at the moment. But when the time comes they better do a good advertisement of the final product or else there will be very few returning players.

TLDW:

Bottom Line:

Players will never be satisfied.
Untill they see 777k x 10 lines for every single class out there

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While I agree that this game s-u-c-k.
My point is difference from OP.
What make this game bad for me is how they manage it. Bug/Bot/Exploit etc.
I rarely have any problem with class build or post renewal game mechanics. (You’ll just say “yay good for me.”)
In short my problem is difference from yours.

There is nothing wrong with having different opinions, it’s just some people tried to discredit other’s opinions because they have a different opinion.

Bugs, exploits, bots, bad decisions—anything that makes the game less fun— are things IMC needs to fix and take responsibility for. It’s not up to the players to lower their standards or try to force themselves to still have fun if they’re having a hard time doing that due to how the game is changing.

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nerft is necessary…just think about classes have been saved from"trash hole" after patch…how can thoae class enjoyable with “top-tier classes” pass by them so easily…game need balance and u are complaining about ur build beccoming balance compare to other class…like falconer nerft is true (i invested 70k attri in falcon…) it needed vause it is too OP and became meta…this isn’t moba, this is RPG and it need fair…OP classes isn’t deserve to exits so stop complaining about ur class is weaker,just look at the classes that veing weak as fvck from the begining and they still try hard ?

I’m not against nerf. You haven’t really understood what I and some other people have said already many times. I’m saying that every time a new rank/class is introduced, all the pre-existing builds become irrelevant and you have to start from scratch again every class/rank patch. And we don’t even know how many more of those patches will come. I’m not complaining about balance. I gave an example already. Lets say Mergen build was balanced right now, and next rank/class patch Mergen is at the same spot but the earlier ranks of that Mergen build is so radically different in order to be relevant that you have to level up a new Mergen from level 1. Another case scenario is, a trash class becomes decent in a balance let’s say that class is Hackapelle. But in the new patch, the previous Hackapelle builds are useless because the new buffed Hackapelle build needs totally different earlier ranks in order to be viable.

Do you get what I’m saying? I’m not talking about nerf or buff. Whenever they introduce new rank/class system. Half of all pre-existing viable builds become trash. (in terms of serious group play builds) You have to level up again from level 1.

I’m NOT saying that nerfing is wrong. You are talking about something completely different. My goodness. it seems like some people get super defensive and think I’m angry about nerf or something. I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT NERFS HERE.

Some people are just so dumb it’s like I’m talking to a wall.

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All of you geniuses who think I’m complaining about ‘nerf’. Wait till rank 9/10/11 patch hits. Your current build will most likely be irrelevant, not because of buffs/nerfs but most likely because of new classes/ranks and how they synergize with earlier ranks. So even if you want to play the same Plague Doctor or Mergen or whatever, you will still need to make a new Plague Doctor/Mergen/etc from level 1 because new rank/classes changes everything. And I’ll repeat. I’M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT NERFS.

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Calm your tities
Sooth your boobs
De-stress your breasts
Undo the calamity that is your mammaries
Adjust your bust before it combusts

Just Pray we get the same rank reset event. (Ktos got it)
Whats wrong with changes, or you prefer static builds for the next 1 year or so.

This game only has magic/physical investments.
Cant differ much aye.

I have some outdated toons too, namely oracle-monk. Monk doesnt require stamina to double punch now , something which oracle provides with Arcane Energy. I get what you mean, but you just have to wait for rank reset lol.

If IMC sold rank resets it will pretty much solve these issues, and there must be reasons why they arent doing it depsite it being a garunteed money-magnet

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You realize that the damage comes from Bokor C3,do you? Bokor is basically the only Class that brings damage to Kabbalist C3 currently because it has Efffigy and Damballa.
But Bokor also boosts damage for all other Cleric builds,simply because it’s too strong for a Rank 3 Class.

Just using Bokor as example (and C3 at that,too,leaving you with ± no build options other than choosing a Rank 6 Class) doesn’t make Kabbalist any good, you may as well build an Oracle with Death Sentence, put Bokor on it and say :“but Bokor deals huge damage, so Oracle is fine”…

The ignoring-part of the statement was aimed at the rebalancing patches. Kabbalist was outright ignored although it performs pretty badly on its own.

The only changes were:

  • Gematria & Notarikon changed to 1 sec CD and 10 targets per cast with an AoE increase (these skills do nothing on their own and the skills providing debuffs still have high CD times)
  • 3 new attributes for Kabbalist C3 with 2 of them being totally useless for the game content (more survival with additional magic block ability, locks your build to a shield and cloth armor, 5 movement speed that have no value outside of farming items because Challenge mode and ET are static instances with no use for large&quick movement) and the last one only increasing max magic attack, so you have only a 10% average matk increase for choosing 3 Class Circles without any damage

What I expect from rebalancing:

Making that Class viable on its own, adding more damage so you can put it on any build.

Merkabah doesn’t have to become a huge nuke skill, but it should deal at least ± as much damage as Black Death Steam on Kabbalist C3, 2200%-2700% is simply not enough to have build freedom, especially given the nature of Gebura&Double Chance being very ineffective on low-damage & multihit skills like e.g. Zaibas,Cure,Heal,Exorcism,Magnus Exorcismus,Hamaya,Bwa Kayiman, Divine Stigma, Smite, Demolition, Carve Attack, Carve Owl,Double Punch,Energy Blast,Indulgentia and even Possession, which are the majority of damage skills prior to Rank 7…

There are also outdates skills (Revenged Sevenfold & Reduce Level) that became pretty much useless in PVE due to the balance changes (Monsters having low attack values makes you reflect only little to no damage, and the impact of reducing a monsters level is barely noticeable due to the same fact)
and Clone which is a pretty bad skill only useful for farming if you farm rare monsters that can be cloned;
the CD time and inability to affect more than one monster at once make the skill a really bad choice for investing points,though (+ it doesn’t affect elite monsters and only has short-lived Clones, so you either need to whale out your Kabbalist to use it on stronger monsters or have a party to do the killing for you).

You do realize that the damage for mememillo comes from the Helmet attributes and the clones.
The supported classes are in no way viable w/o the helmet attributes. Some logic here
Perhaps the swordsman tree have more flexibility when it comes to variation of builds. I do support your logic of more lower ranked classes synergizing with kabbalist 3 but not a kabbalist 3 itself being a standalone power class. Skillset is utility based and you want to see want raw damage
popo_256

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I have 26 characters, half of them R8, rest R7.

I have a feeling that by your definition (that was never clearly stated so far if Im not mistaken) they were all “trash” from start, and are all “trash” now…

So wheres the problem? xD

In all seriousness though, I always have very subpar builds and I feel like they have exclusively gotten more viable throughout the bigger updates, one or more times. I even made use of rankresets to make some of the builds “worse” after they became common.

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This is the avid defender type I was mentioning before.

Also good job. Well done.

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I’m afraid the new upcoming content won’t change much for the game, a new rank? some new classes? a new daily event to grind on your characters, and that’s pretty much it.

It’s a really good patch, but even the best band aid can’t heal deep wounds. So much is broken, so many have left, it feels like when they mend one end another becomes loose. It’s a never ending struggle that just reminds us this was never the thing we wanted originally, and it will never be, but there’s nowhere else to go, just stare deep into the maelstrom of despair until the inevitable will happen.

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Indeed. Not sure since when the word “hype” became so popular in gaming industries. Nowadays people just blidlndly follow the hype, without realizing it is just another dull and repetitive gameplay. Once the hype is gone, game will be more dead than previous.

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