Tree of Savior Forum

Isn't time to end the token system?

General Discussion
#21

So did I. I’m looking much farther back than that. That said, I wouldn’t have been a founder if I knew what they had planned to do with gachas. I haven’t paid IMC a dime since then and I’m disgusted and disappointed when anyone else does the same.

I understand it, though. Players don’t understand what this has done to the industry at large. They’re ignorant, and no amount of talk can fix it, because most players of these games don’t know any better. They have no “then” to compare “now” to, and consequently can’t understand how gachas and loot boxes alter how developers approach their player base; i.e., gambling first and content updates second.

The short version of it is that content and balance suffer because developers prioritize making their game’s progression and cosmetic systems force people to gamble, rather than find interesting ways within the game to improve their character and appearance.

Every person who buys a gacha literally makes the game and industry worse. Every single time. Every such purchase is bad and something to be ashamed of.

3 Likes
#22

Cuz here, nobody wants to compare between tokens and gacha, or between old ToS and actual ToS. Token sucks, gacha sucks.

Nope, it’s not black or white.

#23

Yes. Yes it is. If the game has no gachas in it, the developers are forced to provide non-gambling paths of progression for players to improve their performance and appearance. There’s either gambling or there isn’t. There’s either cancer there eating away at the rest of the game, or there isn’t.

If you disagree, please explain in greater detail. Be specific. I won’t make you cite specific examples, just coherently explain the grey area to me.

2 Likes
#24

If the game has no gacha you have to pay monthly sub
And it will eventually have gacha too
Look at other games literally, I have yet to see a game that’s completely f2p (except shadowverse maybe)

#25

I like monthly subs. I prefer them to other content models. Your traditional subscription-based MMO fell out of favor in the industry simply because developers discovered they could put in much less development time for the same amount of $$$ by exploiting gambling addictions.

1 Like
#26

Gacha is fine, so long as its done right, problem lies in the fact that the Gachapons in this game have items that are extremely valuable and that can be sold on the market, so you can buy them to use for yourself or you can sell them on the market for millions to hundreds of millions of silver.

Of course, I get that skins and such that are tradable can be sold for tons of silver too (sometimes even more than stuff like diamond anvils and such) but at least they aren’t consumables/items that increase your power in game that are also usually not obtainable by normal means, also as more skins are generated in the game the less their value is (generally).

I know I bring this up as an example a lot but look at games like path of exile, there are only cosmetics and quality of life account based services on the cash shop and people pay ridiculous amounts of money for that crap (42$ USD for a single set like wtf??) because GGG respect their player base and give them a quality product they deserve and have a business model that is good long term. That and people freaking love cosmetics, look at games like League or Dota where people spend like 30$ for a single skin.

I wish they would get rid of the token too because it just adds a barrier to new players and doesnt really offer much for veteran players. 30% tax just destroys your silver income using the market and being able to only sell 1 item per character is a meme. Also I could be exaggerating but I recall looking at how long it was going to train some high rank attribute a while back on my friends account and it was going to take like 4 days or something? like what the ■■■■? lol

Anyways… I’d love to see them completely rework tokens or even remove them.

2 Likes
#27

Finally Valkoria, finally some common sense here

people have a hard timing understanding that get token out of this game won’t mean that nobody’s going to spend money anymore.
Token sucks, thats it. If they release a lot of good cosmetics, I’ll spend my money on that. Just like I did in League of legends, shadowverse and Monster super league or any other game with good cosmetics.

Thats way more interesting that this token system. I myself never buyed one from tp shop, only via market. Actually I buy every month via market.

#28

I know people who spent 500 to 5000€ into the game. Only cosmetics lol.

#29

Exactly, its crazy what people will pay to look shiney (I don’t blame them), and it also has a huge impact on keeping players in your game too because of sunk cost fallacy. It plays a large role in why some people still play certain games for a decade or more even (I’m looking at you world of warcraft…)

1 Like
#30

No, you two envy people, you just need to work and pay for the token because the problem is in the stars (???) and if you stop eating mc donalds you can make it (???) or we can all just pay 1 million subscription to play the game mimimi memememe

#31

Yeah, maybe they should change it so that you don’t get any dungeon runs if you don’t have a token running, right? That’s what all the other free games are doing, aren’t they?

Lets see… http://tera.enmasse.com/store/elite-status
Double Dungeon Runs
Reduced CD on skills
Quick travel
Free market usage, more market slots
100% exp boost, other boosts, free consumables blah blah

Its a monthly bit to them as server support. You don’t even have that many drawbacks.
Although if they decided to give a ton of boosts to token users, that’d be nice. :distinguished:
Especially that reduced CD. It’ll be great on my dog3

Edit: I’d say that there is a point regarding the attribute learning, that can be reworked.
Other limitations seem fine. Maybe increase the number of market slots for a free player to 2 or 3.

Edit2: Amusingly, @Valkoria actually has a point.
Path of Exile’s monetization is preferable. They still have RNGcrates, but the cosmetics in them are released on the normal market about 3 months later (1 league).

Path of Exile’s cosmetic system will kill this dude’s buying from market, though. There is no cosmetics trading there. Gotta cough up those dollarydoos yourself.

#32

PoE’s not an MMO though so that’s kind of going on a tangent. Most actual MMOs allows players to sell cosmetics on market.

People aren’t complaining about this or wanting a more restrictive Token system. What they’re complaining about is mostly how like, attribute learning time really makes no sense along with other “benefits”.

1 Like
#33

Considering I had to sacrifice better pet benefits cuz I like Armadillos more than Dodo Birbs I would enjoy that change.
Also, yes, tokens suck and one of the reasons nobody I know wants to play (including myself other than very rare occasions). Time gating, non existent auction house and no trade system just makes everyone stick with an MMO that already has those features for free and has even less/no bot problems.

#34

In this case I was referring to Valkoria’s stuff on PoE.

As for attribute points, yeah. That’s a legacy system from when they thought they’d never release rank resets or attribute reset potions, for the matter. That one needs work.

Edit

Name it, i’m interested in taking a look. A MMO with little/no bots is a curiosity in itself.

#35

Guild Wars 2 is the one I play most :slight_smile:

#36

I… I don’t get your example. Really, I don’t get why you go on an extreme “argument”. And it’s not even related with what I said. Did it stop goldsellers as IMC said or not ? Tell me.

You forget that Tera was not a F2P game, and now it is, it’s nowhere a good example of a healthy and good economy system. I don’t get why you compare ToS which is milking players since beta with Tera that started to milk players when they changed it to a F2P game… it only shows how both games are milking players.

I don’t know if we can compare ToS and GW2. Something is sure, actual MMOS should try to take example on GW2, especially on the B2P model. But here it’s a big problem of many KR games in their economy system compared to western games (in general ofc). It’s like they’re unable to do something else than restricting dungeon entries, xp, storage…

#37

Tera was okay at one point, I left before VM3 and what not. Really good combat, but likewise I hear it’s not doing so hot with inflation.

When it comes to Guild Wars 2, you really need to play it to fully understand how healthy it is. You will get some bots trying to farm some materials on older maps trying to farm some materials for legendary weapons. I’ve literally only seen a handful on 1 out of the 100s of maps and they get dealt with rather quickly.

Their economy is alive, well and managed. It’s insane how structured their market is and inflation never was a part of my experience. Their sinks are good, their material consumption is fair and keeps prices stable. Most of all, their cash shop is completely healthy with a exchange rate of selling gems for Gold, and buying Gold for Gems (their TP.) and last I checked no game breaking loot boxes. Just convenience items, bag slots, character slots, fashion, skins for your gliders, weapons, pets, armour, it’s fantastic.

There’s one loot crate though with an exclusive non-tradable skins, but most people just earn those through doing content during the Heart of Thorns era. I haven’t checked it’s been a while. I’ll get back to you on that.

I’ve skimmed through the chat and I wanted to drop some videos, there’s quite a few good documentaries about game studios. Whether it’s a plug or not, there’s plenty of intriguing things when it comes to morals or just business principals.

And within even Runescape’s fantastic documentary talking about why they included micro-transactions for Runescape 3, why they had remove trading and even the wilderness at one point because of fraudulence. Which is similar to IMC’s case with trading limits.

There’s so much you could analyze from so many different companies, and I hope IMC does take a look. The industry has been around for such a long time already.

1 Like
#38

Oh yes I forget about bots in my post, they exist in GW2, but they are really rare. The funny thing is they are literally necroboting, using Necromancer to farm mats :distinguished:.

#39

Which is why all KR games will continue to fail internationally and more-so westernly for the rest of eternity. They can’t evolve out of their outdated values and they also absolutely adore whale catching tactics and rage-quit educing loss systems like enchanting which just shows very little respect for customers.

3 Likes
#40

We should fuse the korean/eastern prettiness with some wisdom from western devs maybe?

1 Like