Tree of Savior Forum

Is Hoplite worth it?

Class and Rank Swordsman
#1

Lately I’ve been pondering if taking Hoplite is still worth it. Sure we are getting a slight rework that is going to boost the numbers, but those skills are only good for adding some DPS while clearing bosses (Pierce, Stabbing) and let’s be honest, those are easy enough as it is. Spear Throw used to be good, but nowadays it does close to nothing vs. level 360 monsters. In the end the only skills worth a squat are Finestra and Spear Lunge for the Pierce debuff.

Now, I mostly use this char to solo farm the level 300 Dungeon (entire room can be cleared with one Dragon Fall), ET30 and random materials farming, so C2 Peltasta for level 10 Swash Buckling is a must for me, or I just can’t pull the entire room (Swash Buckling seems to increase the default aggro maximum, so 24 targets total)

I’ve been playing around with the C3 Cataphract during the Reset Event and I fell in love with the movement speed, Doom Spike is decent, tho it doesn’t add much and Rush is well… useless because I can aggro with Swash Buckling anyway.

Now I don’t get much utility out of Cataphract, but if I’m honest, I ain’t getting much utility out of Finestra as well. Sure the +3 AoE ratio and 250 critical chance helps, but I’m using 3 level 10 Centaurs cards as it is, so I have plenty of AOE on my own. I feel like 250 critical chance means less and less every time the monster level increases and I don’t really feel like running around in Leather just to crit more. It might work for killing bosses but for farming, I want my physical defense as high as possible. If you are into farming bosses, you should be playing the Shinmillo variant anyway, as it offers much, much more damage. Also, I kinda fail to see the point of high burst classes, as there is nothing worth farming anyway, at least when it comes to bosses.

Saying all of that, any suggestions on what to pick? I tried hybrid variants, C2 Hoplite, C1 Cataphract and I don’t know, 10 movement speed and 20 seconds of downtime hardly seem worth it.

https://tos.neet.tv/skill-planner#1133777fff.3555.3a4a65.3f5a65.1d214f5a7581
https://tos.neet.tv/skill-planner#1133444fff.3555.3a4a65.1f2e3f71.1d214f5a7581

#2

Hoplite is worth it for Murm builds, due to the cassis crista attribute to boost Synchro Thrust damage.

#3

You’re right about Hop being mostly a boss killer class. Synchro Thrust has a very, very bad AoE range and other skills like Stabbing / Pierce don’t have good width area to damage big group of mobs.

Spear throw is really situational. It can be really strong if you can stay far from enemies and there’s a falconer in your party doing circling on mobs. You can get up to ~1500% skill factor with it (+100% from range, +100% from circling) so in paper it’s actually quite strong, granted it has 5 overheat and 10 sec cd. However, the cast animation is very very long, so in most situations where you can’t stay far / don’t have circling, it’s a quite crappy skill in terms of dps.

The problem is that, if you’re picking Dragoon 3 and Pelta 2, you only have 3 class ranks to choose from (ranks 4, 5 and 6). Cata 3 is great for farming and moving quickly between rooms, but you barely get any damage out of it. Finestra does give you a lot of crit and block, which makes your survivability and damage much better, and if you’re picking hop 3, you also get +20% damage to all medium mobs. You can also pick other stuff, like Barbarian that gives Cleave which increases Dragon Soar damage. Cata dps is just minimal and it’s utility is the move speed.

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#4

I mostly use this char to solo farm

I don’t really feel like running around in Leather just to crit more

I want my physical defense as high as possible

C2 Peltasta for level 10 Swash Buckling is a must for me, or I just can’t pull the entire room

https://tos.neet.tv/skill-planner#1133369fff.253555.3f4f.b5.153555.1821354f5a7581

cleave > soar/cyclone
serpentine>dragontooth/dethrone
swash> double pay earn > dragonfall

I will try this build later.

#5

I don’t see a point in taking Barbarian over Hoplite? Are you planning to combo Cleave with Cyclone? Also, I don’t see a reason to take Peltasta C3, we can already aggro 24 targets and are limited with our AOE ratios?

What would be the most optional sword and board build for you? I’m not interested in Murmillo, they move too slow and feel really clunky to use, Shinobi feels mandatory or your clear speed just can’t match other DPS classes.

#6

So SLOW

#7

Barbarians get cleave which gives a debuff that increases slash damage by 50%. Dragon Soar is very very strong as Dragoon C3 and it’s getting even better (3 overheats) in future.

Umbo Thrust gives a 3 second debuff that nullifies enemy’s defense. It’s very similar to Skull Swing, but it gets 2 overheats instead of 1, so it’s actually better. It’s very good for bossing, providing around +20~30% overall damage, and you’re already Pelta 2 so it’s not a terrible idea.

If you don’t want to focus too much on bossing, however, you might want to use that class circle for something else.

Highlander 3 and Hoplite 3 are both very good fillers for Pelta 2 - XXX - Dragoon 3. I tend to prefer Hop 3 because of Finestra’s +block, it mitigates damage a lot, making the best of your shield. Highlander 3 makes a great bossing and overall dps build as Skyliner still has a lot of dps and you can combo Prison Cutter cards with Crosscut’s Bleed.

Doppel 1 is a nice choice for Cyclone, but I really dislike the fact you don’t have 100% uptime with Deeds of Valor. If you’re looking for a more AoE build, you could also pick something like Highlander 2 Doppel 1 or even Hop 2 Doppel 1.

Barb 1 is good for improving Dragon Soar, as I mentioned before, but since it’s a debuff and Dragon Soar has quite small AoE, it’s mostly suited for killing bosses. Honestly I’m not a big fan of barb 1 in a Dragoon 3 build, you only have 1 slash skill and other class choices can also give you tons of single target dps (Crosscut’s bleed, Skull Swing removal of defense, Finestra’s +critical rate, upcoming Stabbing changes with Hop C3, etc).

Cata 3 is basically just for Trot’s mobility. Most of it’s skills are really meh and Acrobatic Mount doesn’t really help with any Dragoon skills. Having only Dragoon skills in your skill rotation can be a bit troublesome, but might be less of a hassle when Dragon Soar gets 3 overheats (this skill 1 hit kills most normal mobs with a decent wep).

Overall, it goes somewhat like this:

  • Hop 3: Great boss dps, more survivability if you use shield, poor AoE dps (Finestra, Stabbing, Pierce, Spear Lunge).

  • Highlander 3: Great boss dps, average AoE dps (Crosscut + Prison Cutter, Skyliner, Skull Swing, Vertical Slash).

  • Doppel 1: Very poor boss dps, average to good AoE dps (Cyclone).

  • Barb 1: Average boss dps, very poor AoE dps (Cleave debuff).

  • Cata 3: Poor boss dps, poor to average AoE dps, great mobility (Rush and Trot).

I don’t think Murmillos are that slow. Even without Murmi C2, they can still dash and be slightly faster than non-swordman classes running. Shinobi dash attribute only gives +1 move speed and the difference is minimal.

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#8

Don’t get me wrong, it’s going to be great at C3, 20 sec duration, 20 sec cooldown, but I really dislike the helmet debuff.

@mrshadowccg I wish Swordman builds felt less clunky. Other classes seem to have a logical path to follow up, but we have no clear directory where to go. I still don’t understand why is Lancer locked behind a two handed spear mastery, especially as Dragoon allows the usage of both. Oh well… Are you still sticking to your Murmillo variant?

#9

Well the whole fun of the game is building different classes and trying different combinations.

I think the real problem with swordman classes is the fact they’re too limited to their weapon types. Hoplites only use spears, Corsairs only use 1h + Dagger, Peltasta only uses shield, Lancer only uses 2h spear in mount, etc. Wizard classes have the most freedom of them all, allowing almost any combination possible. Cleric classes are divided between physical/magical but it’s still much easier to make combinations. Archers have same issue with weapon restriction as swordmen (but they do have auto-flip).

What variant are you talking about, exactly? I was a Pelta 3 Hop 3 Murmi 2, but reseted into Pelta 3 Hop 1 Doppel 3 Murmi 1 just recently. I actually really like both builds so far, the first one had a bit of issues with AoE range in skills (hence why I went doppel), but it was stupidly tanky. The second build is actually very focused in AoE dps and doing things like Challenge mode / solo dg runs / farming easily but the boss dmg could be a lot better (no shinobi, etc).

I also have a 2h spear Dragoon 3, which I like a lot, but the lack of Pelta 2/3 really makes it difficult for killing big rooms of mobs. Even if you have way more dps, you still take a lot longer to clear dungeons and farm much slower.

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#10

I confused you with another person, this build actually offers a surprising amount of AOE clear (each clone extends your AOE area):
https://tos.neet.tv/skill-planner#1134aaadc.253555.152535.253545.11213f4151657a8a91.1225324155.1121334575

You went C3 Doppel, are you switching between Spear and Two Handed sword? Most of the skills on Doppel have a weapon type limit right?

#11

That’s Friend’s build:

It’s actually very focused in boss / world boss dps.

If you feel like swordmen are clunky, you’re going to love playing shinobi clones against big mobs (/sarcasm).

I actually have shinobi quest done in my Murmillo but I always opt out of shinobi for an AoE build because clones miss too much and feel terrible to kill mob groups with. Yes, if you position right, if all clones face the direction you want, if the mobs don’t move too much, you will kill the whole mob with a skill. But in 90% of the situations where those things don’t happen, clones will mess up your mob grouping by drawing mobs everywhere, be surprisingly frustrating to reposition, etc.

The biggest benefit of having Swash Buckling is the fact you get all mobs to attack you. You can group mobs perfectly together and take the most out of your AoE skills. If you have an inferior Swash Buckling (from only Pelta 1), coupled with high damage clones, you won’t be able to keep aggro and thus make mobs spread apart quite often.

Couple Swash Buckling with good AoE Atk ratio and it feels so much easier to kill mob groups than it is with clones…

Just a note on Swash Buckling: It increases your max mob provocation count but it only pulls aggro of the “Targets” number in the skill. In example, Swash lv 5 pulls 11 targets to you, which will focus these mobs to attack you for a while, but you also get +10 max provocation targets, which means you can have a total of 20 mobs following you. The remaining 9 mobs which will follow you won’t have their aggro focused on you, thus they will change targets to clones as soon as they attack.

Pelta 3 also provides +50% aggro from Swash’s pull, making it much less likely for other characters to steal your aggro.

EDIT:

To answer your question:

From doppel 3 I’m only taking Punish, Cyclone and Deeds of Valor (all three skills maxed). These skills can be used with any weapon so 2h sword is not really required.

Cyclone deals a lot of AoE dps over time (9228% skill factor with DoV over 27 hits in 5.5 seconds per overheat), with a nice area around you, and it also gets +8 AoE atk ratio, which is really nice.

Punish now deals 3 hits per mob with Doppel 3 attribute, this totals out on 3467% skill factor with DoV, which is inferior to Rodelero’s Targe Smash, but still a very good area (although limited by AoE atk ratio).

DoV also boosts all your other skill damages, so it’s a great buff to have, which may even out the loss of Rodelero skills (Shield Bash, Shooting Star, etc).

#12

I did Pel3 Hop1 Doppel3 milo too on day 1reset. Changed to Pel Hop3 Doppel Goon3 and it felt like the first build is better in farming even with Punish nerf.

You keeping this build? Altho soon Canceril card will be nerf.

#13

Oh, so that’s what +20 provocation means, it’s the number of additional mobs, I thought it was 20% more aggro or something. The default aggro limit is 8 or 9? I thought it was 8.

I have a question for you tho, if you agree that Shinobi is a masochistic class, why do you even play Murmillo? The last time I checked, Dragoon 3 outdpses him, or comes really close by, with less investment, while still being really tanky? The new Dragon Fall is amazing, my default AOE limit is 14, but I still manage to hit 30+ targets with it, so I actually think that it has unlimited AOE range.

#14

I believe so, it feels much easier to play than Pelta 3 Hop 3 Murmi 2. I have to say tho, I’m going to miss Scutum attribute for 2x AoE atk ratio (and ofc Sprint).

Not sure about how it’s going to be after Canceril nerf, given DoV 15 increases the damage I take by 19%.

The number of mobs you can have after you without swashbuckling is around 10. I’m not sure the exact number, as it’s hard to tell (if new mob sees you, old mob stops following). With swash buckling, you have the default value + swash buckling’s max provocation (additional amount of mobs that can be following you). So max provocation isn’t really related to how much a single mob hates/aggros you.

Pelta’s C3 attribute, however, does increase the value of Swash’s aggro/hate per mob, which affects how likely the mob is to stop attacking you and attack someone else.

Murmillos can still deal really nice damage without Shinobi. Shinobi is a boss-dps focused class. Murmillos also have the benefit of Cassis Crista which gives magic damage a chance to “Miss” you.

Well let’s make a quick comparison:

Pelta 2 - XXX - Dragoon 3:

  • Dragon Fall: 6337% factor, 50 sec cd, 1 overheat (a.k.a. no overheat)

  • Dragon Soar: 4275% factor, 15 sec cd, 3 overheat (in future).

  • Dethrone: 2367% factor, 16 sec cd, 2 overheat.

  • Can’t pick Gae Bulg max + Dragon Tooth max + Serpentine max because lack of skills points. Lower factors stated below or remove some skill.

    • Dragontooth: 2367% factor, 15 sec cd, 1 overheat
    • Serpentine: 2772% factor (with it’s own debuff), 20 sec cd, 1 overheat.
    • Gae Bulg : 2674% factor, 30 sec cd, 1 overheat

  • Plus Hoplite / Highlander / Other rank 4~6 skills

Pelta 3 - Hop 1 - Dopp 3 - Murmi 1 (values calculated with DoV 15):

  • Cyclone: 9228% factor, 45 sec cd, 2 overheat

  • Punish: 3467% factor (all 3 hits), 18 sec cd, 1 overheat

  • Headbutt: 2304% factor (3293% on stunned), 21 sec cd, 2 overheat

  • Scutum Hit: 1634% factor, 30 sec cd, 3 overheat

  • Umbo Thrust: 2337% factor, 25 sec cd, 2 overheat

  • Synchro Thrust: 1338% factor (2677% counter), 15 sec cd, 2 overheat

  • Butterfly: 1922% factor, 25 sec cd, 2 overheat

  • Umbo Blow: 1650% factor, 12 sec cd, 2 overheat

Murmi might not have as much skill factor as Dragon Soar or Dragon Fall, but it still has a lot of skills with decent factors.

Dragon Fall isn’t limited by AoE atk ratio, that’s why it hits 30 mobs.

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#15

Hop3 Mur2/Dragoon C3 Free Dungeon Farm with High-end gear Video

Hop3 is really good class in build pve and pvp. they have buff and attribute to support high rank for insane dps.

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#16

I mean yeah, I get it, if you are going down the Doppelsöldner route and have nothing left to take on R9, you might as well take Murmillo. Alternatively, you could drop Pelt C3 or Murmillo and take Barbarian for the Cleave debuff? It Should work wonders with Cyclone. But then again, you’d discard a lot of skills. Damn Swordman choices are clunky, nothing fits together perfectly.

I think I’m either going to take the Pelt C2, Hop C3, Dragoon C3 (I might switch Hop C3 for Barb C1) or just ignore all of that completely and go for increased mobility, Dragon Fall with a couple of Dethrones is enough to clear any room anyway.

https://tos.neet.tv/skill-planner#1133446fff.3555.3a4a65.1a293a71.b5.214f5a7581

What’s your opinion regarding Gae Bulg? It should also have unlimited AOE, but damn it’s hard to aim that skill. Dragontooth is getting it’s CD reduced to 1 sec soon, so it should be good enough. Dragontooth is affected by the AOE ratio right?

#17

I think you misunderstand the Pelt3 Doppel3 milo build. You put your skill on Punish, Cyclone and DoV then disregard the 2h weapon skill. Build is more for farming vs massive mob. Not much function outside of farming PVE.

#18

My build is focused around Murmillo tho, not Doppel. True doppel 3 builds with 2h sword usually go for Shinobi at rank 9. Clones can copy Moulinet, Crown and/or Double Slash.

That’s certainly not worth it in a Murmillo build. The whole purpose of Cyclone is to hit mobs in a nice AoE and it’s hard to debuff a big mob with Cleave. Losing out on Pelta or Hop circles for Murmi is also a big loss of potential damage because of Cassis Crista’s attributes.

All three builds are fine, just remember that if you do go Barb 1, you lose out on 20% damage to all medium mobs Hop 3 could be giving you. You’d also lose 10 extra hits on Stabbing (from future attribute), which would be a big boost to Stabbing damage.

(future) Stabbing lv 10 @ Hop 2 : 3760% factor

(future) Stabbing lv 15 @ Hop 3 : 7225% factor (without +20% to medium mob)

Dragon Soar lv 15 : 4275% factor (future: 3 overheats)

Dragon Soar lv 15 with Cleave : 5700% factor (future: 3 overheats)

Dragon Soar lv 15 without Cleave, but with +20% to medium mob : 4845% factor (future: 3 overheats)

Overall I wouldn’t recommend Hop 2 Barb 1. If you really want Barb 1 in your Dragoon build, I would suggest Highlander 2 Barb 1 instead.

I don’t like Gae Bulg much because of long cd and rather weird AoE / aim mechanic, but it’s a decent skill. It’s up to personal opinion tbh.

Dragontooth is not getting cooldown reduced to 1 sec. Dragontooth cast time is lowered to 1 sec.

Now that you ask, I’m not sure, but I think so. I never managed to hit enough mobs with it to matter tho.

#19

I thought you wanted to focus your build around AOE clearing speed, while keeping your defenses, that’s why I didn’t understand your choice to pick Murmillo. I guess you would pick Dragoon, if you could fit both Doppelsöldner C3 and Dragoon C3 in the same build?

Typo, I meant the cast time. I did some testing with Barbarian just now, and like you said, it’s just not worth it.
Cleave debuff should increase the Slash damage by 50%, it’s possible that it’s working, but I’ve seen an overall increase in about 15% or so. Also, the +50 critical rate only lasts for 3 seconds, so it’s really inconvenient.

You’ve been a great help, much appreciated. The question remains, should I sacrifice Hoplite for extra mobility, but I guess that is down to personal choice.

#20

Hard to say, depends on what else I could pick :smile:

Dragoon 3 is indeed a great choice. Can’t go wrong with it, regardless of what you pick before.

Murmi needs investment and can turn out weak if you don’t pick classes that benefit from Cassis Crista. Barb 3 for example is a terrible choice for any Murmi build. Doppel 3 sort of makes up for that loss because Doppel 3 is already pretty strong by itself (Punish, DoV and Cyclone).

Most of the buffs / debuffs in game are Group type 2. When two bonus damages are of the same group, you add them up before applying to the skill factor. Different group type bonuses multiply eachother.

Dragoon C3 helmet is group type 2, and so is cleave. Each of them give +50% damage, so you sum up these bonuses (to a total of +100% damage) and then apply to the skill factor.

Dragon Soar: 285 * 5 = 1425% factor

Dragon Soar + Dragoon C3 double hit attribute: 1425 * 2 = 2850% factor

Dragon Soar + double hit + Helmet: 2850 * 1.5 = 4275% factor

Dragon Soar + double hit + helmet + Cleave: 2850 * 2 = 5700% factor

With and without cleave, you’re seeing a difference of 5700 - 4275 = 1425% factor. If you divide 1425 / 4275 you get 0.33 which means you are actually seeing a 33% damage increase on Cleave (instead of +50%)

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