Tree of Savior Forum

Increase the Buff Cap by a reasonable amount

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#21

I get defensive when it’s a response that shows a clear lack of effort - things that simply repeat what was already said. If it is reasoned and well thought out, I have no issues with an opinion that is against mine.

8 is right because 5 is not enough. There are many hidden buffs that steal your buff slots without you noticing it, things like safety zone and heal which are not even buffs which suddenly take up a slot when active.

A swordman and priest combo already has trouble because the good priest buffs are Blessing, Sacrament and Monstrance/Revive and that is already 3 slots. Then Swordie has Gungho/Concentrate and their higher rank skills like Cleave or Finestra. Notice how I’m already stretching it by including the / options, that I don’t even expect these important buffs to be taken. Either GH or concentrate must be sacrificed. Add them together and it’s already 5. Oh, want your pyro’s enchant fire? Nope. Oh you’ve got a support linker whose gonna spread buffs to you? Absolutely not. I already deliberately exclude nonsense like Reflect Shield and Stone Skin in the equation, which for other people like SPR builds would not agree with me that they are nonsense.

And once you get to the higher ranks, there are so many other things like Thauma, Linker, Doppel, Wizard, Rogue and stuff that take up primary buff slots.

So no, 5 is really not enough. And something above 5, but not too high, like 8-10, would be reasonable so that Daino remains important. Thank you for reading

#22

I disagree with this, not to mention ‘limited consumable’ is a redundancy. Consumables should be mandatory for difficult content. If you can steamroll the content, then buffs become a non-issue and 5 is fine. Just discuss what the 5 will be and dont use anything else.

#23

Blue is better then green because i said so. Worst argument ever lol.

And what the rest of your post describes is a good thing it makes danio desired for groups via a krivis player or via scrolls both are available.

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#24

You think Stone Skin is nonsense? It is one of the best buffs in the game. It allows characters without shields to block attacks and adds a ton of block even with low SPR, it is a game changer.

That aside if the buff limit is too high you marginalize the need for Krivis to be in the group. Daino scrolls will be readily available and it will immediately solve your problem, so the solution is bust out the wallet, make a pardoner, or party with clerics that put ranks into Krivis.

#25

I actually proceeded to explain why I felt 5 is not enough. ‘8 is right because 5 is not enough’ would make sense, because it would suggest that a number above 5 is appropriate as 5 and below is not enough. However, I agree that the number ‘8’ itself is arbitrary, which is why I specified a range.

Anyway, I’ve already discussed at least 3 times about the role of Daino. I wish you would bother to read before contributing to a topic. Daino should be important, but it shouldn’t be so important that you must have a Krivis in your party at all times. That is just plainly bad design.

  • Making a class compulsory for ordinary content is never a good idea. I’ve already said that Krivis and Daino is mandatory at high level content, I didn’t dispute that. But it shouldn’t be required for everything.
  • Many cleric players feel compelled to take up Krivis simply because of this. I’ve talked to many priest specialists, and many of them feel the same. Of course you can say ‘Daino scrolls’ but that’s not the point. The situation shouldn’t be so bad in the first place that Daino is a must have all the time.
#26

You don’t need one in your party. Buy scrolls.

Priest specialist here, I disagree with you. If you don’t need the extra buffs to complete the content than just suck it up with 5. If you do need the buffs then suck it up and get a Krivis or get the scrolls. The system works just fine.

#27

Okay, but the fact that you felt that Stone Skin is required shows how difficult it is to balance the needs of a party with only 5 buffs available on the table.

I hardly see the fact that Krivis classes will be marginalized. In fact, it is other classes being marginalized simply because they didn’t pick Krivis.

#28

Ah, I like the argument about ‘needing’ the buffs and sucking it up with 5, albeit crudely put. For example, like making do without Finestra or Sacrament or Blessing, and just getting the content over and done with.

But I don’t necessarily agree with how it is being implemented at the moment. It’s really a huge mess and a very high chance to accidentally override someone’s buffs. I think there should be an option to select what you want or don’t want.

#29

Not required, it is good and you use it when it is needed. You don’t just use your buffs when they are off cooldown everytime, you prioritize and use it when it will impact the most.

For example, your tank pulls a huge mob that you know is too much. As support it would be important to put up revive and stone skin at that time. If a wizard or any other class rolls off your buffs then you tell them to stop as they are wiping the group by doing so.

Communication with your group solves the 5 buff problem. It is a puzzle that you have to solve and I think it is good design to have it in there.

#30

Now we are cooking with gas. I agree with being able to deny buffs ahead of time that would be a neat way to implement a good change.

You could type in a command /buff or something and then check off the ones you don’t want. If that wizard wants to roll off my revive with reflect shield that is his business, but I most likely will never party with them again :stuck_out_tongue:

#31

The last thing I’m still concerned about is the overcentralization of the role of the Krivis and Daino, though. Most parties, rather than ‘suck it up’ as you say, might simply pick a Krivis over someone else. This doesn’t actually happen yet because there are a lack of healers, but they kind of already do this with Linker, which as a Linker myself, I find kind of imbalanced and problematic.

Though I don’t think this is really a huge issue at this point (people are picky about linkers but not about types of healers … YET) but I don’t want every priest or cleric or diev being compelled to take Krivis just because everyone wants them to have Daino lol.

#32

i think the sorceress cat buff should be all in one instead of occupying 5 buff slots

#33

I did read so get off your high horse. Your argument is just awful.

5 is fine it covers solo play for the majority of classes which means danio is only relevant in groups where you can bring a krivis if you care that much, and its not mandatory. And if you cant find a krivis buy a god damn scroll if your worried about buff cap they are cheap as hell.

And before you point back to your points its not so bad that you need danio all the time the current 200 cap dungeon and other content can be completed with ease without danio.

#34

that would defeat the purpose of the buff cap and make that buff to strong.

#35

the problem is 1 skill already overcome the buff cap , making a pain to use it in team play

also the buffs aren’t that good

#36

I would agree with you if not for the fact that there are just sooo many buffs even before one hits 125 (where pardoner is relevant and you probably can start affording the scrolls). And if there are already so many buffs before pardoner and Daino scrolls come into question (what the hell, they are expensive btw at 10.5k COST price without accounting for pardoner’s profit, but I don’t want to get into a prolonged discussion about how easy it is to make silver) then it’s already asking for Daino the moment any of the buffing classes even attempt to party up. This isn’t a solo game, it’s an MMO, and while you’re free to play solo of course, I don’t think it should be designed to discourage group play at all.

I totally agree that you don’t -need- Daino and can probably complete the content without it. It is just really annoying to do so though, and I haven’t seen any good reason why increasing the buff limit slightly is a bad thing anyway. You still preserve the need for balancing buffs without it being a headache.

If there was a way to reject certain buffs, then your idea might be more reasonable.

#37

It’s not. The buff cap design encourages you to group to increase your cap.

As for the auto reject thing for other players buffs that you mentioned here and previously i have no issue with that, that is why i haven’t argued with it. I see no reason i player can’t prioritize their own buffs.

#38

The buff cap design encourages you to group to increase your cap.

Correction - the buff cap encourages you to pick a Krivis to increase your cap. That’s not the same as encouraging you to group. If anything, people would tend to pick Krivis over others more and ostracize other classes. Obviously this doesn’t happen now because people aren’t so picky, thank god. But it can be foreseen to be a potential problem once the buff limit screws with everyone.

#39

even one rank is krivis is a huge increase to buff cap. And other classes the ONLY class at risk here is c2 cleric (haven’t tried it so maybe its better then i think it is but currently i assume its crap). Priest can has plenty of things that make it a strong choice next to krivis.

#40

even one rank is krivis is a huge increase to buff cap.

You still shouldn’t make people feel compelled to take 1 rank of Krivis just because they have to.

And other classes the ONLY class at risk here is c2 cleric (haven’t tried it so maybe its better then i think it is but currently i assume its crap). Priest can has plenty of things that make it a strong choice next to krivis.

The funny thing is, that you probably need the Krivis to utilize the Priest buffs effectively at mid-level content (think lvl 90 or 130 dungeon) where everyone starts getting their buffs…

All these issues can be resolved by simply increasing the buff cap slightly tbh