Tree of Savior Forum

IMC, Just rollback the servers

General Discussion
#1

I don’t say this lightly,and I am sure that most will read the title and auto-rage but hear me out please.

@STAFF_Amy @STAFF_Yuri @STAFF_Max

IMC or GMS or whoever, really messed up with the DPK drops. It was not confined to one specific bug, glitch, problem, or anything like that. In fact, if you were new to the game, you wouldn’t even know it was an issue and would of interpreted it as normal drop rates.

DO NOT TAKE PUNITIVE ACTIONS AGAINST PEOPLE!!!
You cannot objectively differentiate between people that exploited, thinking it was yet another silent patch change you’ve done so many of lately, or just a new player that wouldn’t even know there was an issue. I guarantee if you try to determine innocence or guilt you will not only spend an inordinate amount of time shutting down the server (and you already are), you will cause people to quit.

You should roll back the servers, and as compensation offer:
a week token,
full reset vouchers (ideally at least 4, since that’s the default character limit)
and something cute (armband, hat, costume, whatever)
or something serious to compensate for undoing multiple days progress

Again, the minute you start blocking and banning people, YOU WILL UNDO ANY GAINS YOU MADE TO NEW AND RETURNING PLAYERS THESE PAST FEW WEEKS.

This is not about letting people off the hook, its about protecting those that are innocent.

Is it better to kill 10 men when you only know that one is guilty, or let them all go free so nine innocent men can live?

You are at a bigger crossroad than you think, and if you choose the executioner route you will only be killing this game as well.

17 Likes
#2

aegrus stop being so mean be mey fren agen :sob:

1 Like
#3

yea it sucks for players to return or join just to be banned a week later D:
i actually got around 5 cubes at the 280 HG about a day or 2 ago before i even knew about the exploit and i even gave one away to a guildie. i might have been banned D: . but the servers are on maintance so im not even sure.

#4

@STAFF_Amy @STAFF_Yuri @STAFF_Ethan @STAFF_Letitia

What’s even more dangerous is the precedent this sets if they go through with it. If we don’t know what changes are official and are bugs, and we will be punished for not knowing the difference. How is this change any different than the first silent patch where DPK was removed or drastically lowered for about a week with no explanation. What about the past few months with the hunting grounds and various increases and decreases in drop rates?

I highly suggest all the staff and the developers read up and study Game Theory and understand that these changes and DPK incentivize everyone acting in an unfavorable manner (trying to steal DPK).

If we are going to be punished regardless, we may as well be guilty since we can still benefit, while those that do the “right” thing (hard when you keep changing the systems) will always be at a loss.

Edit: IMC announced they were changing drop rates. They just botched the implementation.

2 Likes
#5

The problem as you correctly recognized is how do we know when there is an issue. In the case of anyone who has previously tried to farm a battle bracelet you might be able to make that argument that a drop rate of 1 in 10 kills is obviously wrong. But as you also note that a new player would not necessarily even know that! As I mentioned in one of the other threads I spent about an hour in the 280 HG and found 5 or 6 boxes. Did this seem high? Yes, but I also mentioned I haven’t played basically since the hunting grounds were introduced so I really had no frame of reference. I think the overwhelming majority of players that could be affected by this ban are in the same boat that I am. They were just playing the game. A consumer shouldn’t have to second-guess if the content being provided to them will be considered an exploit from moment to moment. What’s the right solution to this? I’m not sure but I can certainly say that wide reaching bans of the player base is not going to help things. I definitely agree that IMC needs to tread carefully with how they deal with this issues because the game is on the precipice of falling into total obscurity.

2 Likes
#6
  • New player just joined the game ->
  • Kills a hannaming ->
  • “Wow! A hannaming gem!” ->
  • Checks market, gem is worth 200k ->
  • “Wow! This game is so nice to new players! I might farm a few more gems so I start off with some money to buy potions!” ->
  • Gets 10 Hannaming gems ->
  • BANNED
8 Likes
#7

Except that isn’t at all how it works.
First of all the player wouldn’t even be able to use the market unless his account was 2 days old and he was level 40.
Secondly if you just farmed dpk items they get removed and your account is on hold while they remove the items, not banned.
You’ll only be banned if you clearly exploited it by repeatedly farming and selling items, and the severity of the ban will probably range from 7-30 days depending on how much you exploited.

#8

I’ve farmed a dozen of cubes, cause many players was doing it and i was getting behind of them. If they ban me for this, no problem. I can always play other game.

4 Likes
#9

There is one thing people usually do NOT make use of: logic.

Do you really think an item would be sold for 200k in the market, if it is really that easy to farm? Furthermore, would it be anyway sold in the market if obtained so easily?

This is why IMC is, IMHO, being nice to people who came across this bug: those who only dropped the items are getting suspended, only needing to submit a support ticket to solve this problem. And those who made shitloads of silver will get banned, by clearly exploring the flaw this bug exposed in the in-game economy.

And one thing you guys should always remember: put yourselves in the same place you were when started playing this game. Do you really believe that, at that time, you would consider a hanaming gem, for example, an item worth selling if you dropped it so easily at the beginning? Most people (if not everyone) would consider it a trash item, since apparently everyone would be able to obtain it extremely easily.

#10

You can’t force others to think your way.

You shouldn’t punish others for mistakes you do yourself.

Some people weren’t even 100% sure that was actually a bug since the dpk system had JUST went through maintenance (exactly to fix it). What if the items were really meant to be dropping that much?

I’ve played many mmorpgs and when I first started playing the first thing I did was sell a hannaming gem for 1kk. Figured it was a rare loot which I wouldn’t use until later on in game and I needed the money.

2 Likes
#11

What I did when I started this game.

I got drops, and held on to most of them and checked the market to see if they were being sold and for what price. I sold ones that were valuable and eventually ditched the rest.

When you first join a game your baseline in your previous example would be that hanamjng gems are worth 200k and silver is easy to get since hanaming gems are easy to get. That’s logical. Why would you question that if you had no other information.

1 Like
#12

no need to rollback :slight_smile: they will implement sanctions to everyone who exploit :slight_smile: dont be a crab

#13

Great idea!
I just finished my Miko quest that day, I would love to do it again! o v o)b

2 Likes
#14

As of this point, they havent say anything in details about punishment and relevant criteria, stop making up assumption and wait for the final verdict.

Personally, I think punitive action will only happen to the account with seriously clear evidence of intentional exploits, the other ppl at most will get a slap on the hand.

1 Like
#15

Of course, when you quote only the first part of my response you’re able to say whatever you want, out of the original context. If you read everything, you should be able to see that the first part is related to the remaining, but anyway let me explain it to you:

I’m not forcing anyone to think my way, or punishing anyone for mistakes I make. What I am exposing here can be called “common course of action”, which is caused by “common sense”. Disconsidering the whole DPK problem, when you start playing a game there are concepts you would never consider to be related. One of the best examples are “trash” and “expensive”.

Take for example this Hanaming Gem situation. Now, consider it as a “trash” item, being dropped each ~10 hanamings. After killing ~100 mobs you would have around 10 gems. Do you think it would be an item worth 200k? Especially considering that in about 10 minutes you got 10 of them? If you say “yes”, then let’s change the example…Kepa stems! Or, even, Leaf Bug Shells! Would you consider these items being worth something, knowing that after killing around 100 mobs, you would have, let’s say, about 50 of them?

I’m not saying that nobody should do this. However, I guess that nobody so far checked in the market how expensive is a Kepa Stem or a Leaf Bug Shell. Especially because these items are related, in our minds, to “trash”. Probably, you don’t think that food boxes or cans inside your trash bag have an interesting selling value, and the same relation can be transfered to these in-game items. You guys say that sell hanaming gems for 1kk when started playing the game, but only because you spent some time playing it before running across this information, to attempt to farm one of these gems. I’m not saying it’s impossible for a beginner to get such item, but what are the odds?

To be honest, to you all say that “people would just think this is a regular behavior of the game, being so nice and giving to all players” is the same as calling everyone “naive” and to some degree “stupid”. Most people won’t check how much their garbage bags are worth, and will, in most cases, make a better use of their time. If you say you always check the price of all items you farm when begin playing a game, then you should also claim to check the price you can get out of your trash, because the behavior and premise is exactly the same. Otherwise, as you said yourself, “You can’t force others to think your way”.

1 Like
#16

You are saying this but you already have experience and information in the game. To someone who just started, 200k may have a differing value. Perhaps they think 200k is as meaningful as 500 silver from another item to people in the endgame.

But to him, 200k is a lot because he can buy tons of potions which he needs immediately.

Either way, my hannaming gem post was just a joke. This discussion won’t be leading us anywhere as we can’t really predict how a new player would behave.

My biggest point is, you shouldn’t punish others for your mistakes. When you’re a software developer and sell your software to a costumer, you shouldn’t blame your costumers for not knowing how to use or using the software in a wrong way. Banning exploiters will never be 100% fair and always end up in more drama. But well, that’s just my opinion.

I’m sure IMC is already tired of never doing anything and people always complaining they never do anything about exploiters. This time they decided to take an action but ofc there will always be people against it.

2 Likes
#17

The fact that any action is an improvement is scary.

That aside, you hit the nail on the head:

There is no easy solution, someone will always be caught in the crossfire. I wouldn’t want a rollback, but I believe its the best overall option if they wish to not completely disrupt the games economy and player base. I especially feel for those doing miko/appraiser quests and those that got super lucky that would have that erased.

However, its a numbers game. Which will cause the least amount of innocent people to get caught in the backlash?

A rollback with high compensation would mean the most people would win, and any damage to the games economy would be reversed.

Banning/blocking people on circumstantial evidence will definitely cause innocent people to be caught in the crossfire.By still allowing for “just 1” of the items per person to enter the market, you not only destabilize the market, you also create an incentive for “good players” to exploit future “bugs” that they normally would not.

A rollback would be the better solution for the collective good.

2 Likes
#18

However, if they do rollback, a thing IMC ultimately do not want will happen: the trust with the playerbase and the company will be lost forever.

I know it’s a fair solution, don’t get me wrong. The problem is - If you had a rollback once, that’s usually means it can happen again. This fact is maybe the most frustating thing that may happen to a player, because the main thing you invest in MMORPGs is time, even more than money (even whales have to). If you “erase” time, you will be punishing everyone and people who do not were involved will get really frustrated.

So, I know the “trust” between players and IMC is not the best ever, but if they do rollback, it’s going to be forever broken in a certain way. I don’t know if I made myself clear here, but is a tough issue to explain…

#19

If they ban people for their mistake it will more than likely create a bigger problem. Most MMO’s have had to do a rollback for some reason or another, its annoying, but its a clear objective fix for a major fuckup. Profusely apologize, offer some cool cosmetics, offer a week free, reset vouchers, and whatever else you can and people are more willing to accept it. No one is made worse off than the other, everyone lost something, everyone gained something.

IF they do a witchhunt and BAN people for their mistake, that is a direct slight to the player and much more personal. Especially if you have no idea what you did wrong, or did not do anything wrong and were just caught up in the crossfire. Allowing some of the gains to be kept in addition to the temp bans sends a bad message as well. This incentivizes “exploitative behavior” in future scenarios since you are gonna be punished one way or another, may as well benefit.

#20

It’s already hard enough to tell if you were truly involved or not. BBs and HG cubes are obvious, but what about everything else related to DPK? If you got one wizard bracelet yesterday, were you actively looking for it due to the bug or were you just passing by and accidentally dropped it?

Rollback is frustrating to everyone, but overall it’s a much easier solution and more “neutral” than actively banning who they -THINK- exploited or not. I’m sure there will be a wave of players complaining of unfair bans afterwards if they are too strict with the bans, or a wave of people complaining economy erupted if they were too tolerant.

Rollback translates to lost time. Whatever you did yesterday can be done again tomorrow (though your chances might not be the same again). It’s frustrating, yes, but less harmful to the playerbase imo. Banning people is actively pushing people away from your game, even if they’re guilty, and that’s not really what IMC wants right now. Wanting a game clean of exploiters is completely utopic and naive. This is a video game, not a social behavior experiment. If you don’t want exploiters in your game, just don’t give them a chance to exploit.

1 Like