Tree of Savior Forum

Highlander's Cross Guard vs Peltasta's High Guard...WTF?

General Discussion
#21

How much block does having a shield give you?

If I understand correctly, shields give you mainly physical defense and only a little bit of block. An example of the stats on a shield:

The difference in block rate between level 15 Cross Guard and High Guard is this:
678 - 240 = 438 block.

How many points do you need to put in CON for a Peltasta to achieve a difference of anywhere near 438 block?
Even if you hold the guard button as a Peltasta (this roots you in place, similar to Cross Guard), for memory it only increases block by 200+ something? Nowhere near 438 block.

And also, I’ve been stressing the negative stats on High Guard and Guardian. -50% damage and -100 crit is nothing to sniff at, it severely gimps your dps and you are essentially rely on Umbo/Rim blow only to deal damage for the rest of your build if you want to keep up High Guard.

#22

Honestly I don’t use High Guard. I’ll recheck exactly how much Guarding gives me, but with Finestra and a mostly CON build at around 130 I got 1k block without holding down my shield and around 1.4k when guarding. High Guard would only add onto it and you forgot that High Guard had an attribute to more than double rim blow and umblo blow damage which is fairly high for a tanky class.

If my Peltasta was running around with all the above and High Guard, I’d push at least 1.6k+ block which is insanely high, and around 1.3k when not guarding which means almost all physical attacks are useless just from auto blocking, not even holding down the guard key.

If I didn’t get a damage reduction from that I might as well be the all powerful swordsman class. A highlander can never even hope for this because of 0 block, and if you want the number tweaked, then they will literally have another useless skill and be able to block nothing again. Crossguard only lasts a few seconds to begin with instead of guards infinite duration from holding down a key, and it’s simply meant to be a counter attack where you use it and HOPE to block one attack for vulnerability.

#23

This might explain a bit about the difference between a Peltasta and a Highlander, but it still doesn’t justify how bad High Guard is. It certainly also doesn’t justify how bad Guardian is too.

You mention that with blocking, you get 1.4k block when guarding without High Guard and 1.6k block with High Guard.
At 1400 block, for a measly 240 block it does not justify halving your damage and reducing your crit by 100.
You would be better off walking around as a Peltasta WITHOUT High Guard and not be halving your damage.
Also, the Rim blow and Umbo blow attributes from High Guard might seem good in the beginning but their damage is capped at level 15, after which their damage won’t improve, this will become crucial especially when you reach higher ranks. When your Rim Blow and Umbo Blow damage becomes sub-par, the only benefit from High Guard is that +240 block, which doesn’t justify its use.

About the skill Guardian - for 15 skill points it increases defense by 35 - a flat number that doesn’t scale. That shield that I linked earlier is a level 170 shield and it already increases defense by 70, double this amount. Why spend 15 points on a skill to give such a minimal increase in defense, not to mention the damage handicap?

Again, numbers of these 2 buffs need to be reworked. At the end of the day, numbers matter.

Edit: One last thing I forgot to mention, your character is level 130 right now. Once you hit level 200 you will most likely hit 2000+ block, in which case High Guard’s +240 block is going to be even less significant. At least Finestra’s buff adds a percentage to your block so it scales well as your levels increase.

With the current numbers, the optimal way to build a tank seems to be this:

  • Get Peltasta c1 so you can hold down guard.
  • Get a shield.
  • Add stats in CON
  • Go Hoplite c3 for level 15 Finestra buff (+30% block)
  • Go Centurion and use Phalanx formation for +block or Tercio formation for +defense
  • ???
  • Profit!
#24

First, if your going peltasta, I’m going to assume you don’t want the most amount of DPS as the class offers tanking capabilities, 100 crit is minimal and you probably won’t have much to begin with. It’s crit chance which means you’d need a LOT of DEX to have a decent crit chance to begin with. If you want to crit, High Guard is not the skill for you.

Second 240 block is a decent chunk in addition to % block scaling buffs like Finestra and peltasta attributes that add % block and % defense, especially when guarding. I can agree it can certainly be a little higher but not by much.

Guardian does add a fairly low chunk of defense but also offers evasion through an attribute and again, even that small bit of defense adds up due to % scaling attributes/buffs. I can agree that buffing it a little bit would make me want to pick it up more.

Back to the OP, crossguard most definitely does not need to be tweaked in comparison to Peltastas. I see plenty if not more Peltastas around instead of highlanders, and crossguard is almost never used due to it being a few seconds of guarding most useful only in PvP and every now and again in PvE and even then it can’t even be remotely compared to the block that can be achieved by shield wielding Peltastas.

As for the most optimal method of tanking, if all you want to do is be a meat shield holding down the guard key 24/7 in dungeons, and almost absolutely useless outside of dungeons then yes, that route is the way to go. But by no means is that the optimal method of tanking. An optimal method of tanking would be a build that:

  1. Can hold aggro.
  2. Can take a minimal amount of damage while dealing he maximum amount of damage it can.
  3. Usually offer as much CC as possible while still being able to take minimal damage.

The build you posted offers maximum damage reduction and can hold aggro on 10 targets, but by no means is it remotely optimal. Similar to full support clerics, they are not necessary with the current content and far from optimal.

#25

Why did you leave out the -50% damage, which is the main drawback of the skill? Of course the crit reduction isn’t important - a CON build wouldn’t have much crit in it in the first place anyway. -50% damage will affect your ability to build up and maintain aggro as a tank, which is the entire point of that skill being bad.

In my edit I mentioned that when you reach higher levels, 2000+ block or higher is achievable, at that point +240 is minimal. The point is it doesn’t scale, unlike Finestra.

Finestra lowers your evasion especially at level 15, if you’re going for a build with high block in it then forget about the +18% evasion from Guardian’s attribute at level 3.

I can see your point about Highlanders not achieving the block rate compared to shield wielding classes. Still, building a tank currently doesn’t revolve around getting high rank Peltasta as I described. The only reason to increase ranks in Peltasta is for Swash Buckling, but to be honest 10 targets is enough for most boss fights. Adds are usually destroyed quickly by the DPS in your party anyway.

Also with the build I described, you can get level 15 Stabbing from Hoplite which allows you to deal damage and build up aggro on the boss (if you do NOT use High Guard and gimp your damage).

#26

Swash buckling keeps aggro (you gain an aggro buff) and can reuse it when it runs out so no you don’t deal damage to keep aggro, currently it’s a joke and is just spamming swashbuckling.

As for the 2000+ block thing, I don’t think at 200 I can reach that high, and to get kind of close I’d need to go full CON rendering my class useless for PvE outside of dungeons, sub optimal for dungeons and trash in PvP. But if I did go full CON, you are absolutely correct.

And for stabbing holding aggro, if you want that high block, you can’t sacrifice points from CON for stabbing, so either stabbing damage is trash, or you put a lot less points in CON. Also once again, swashbuckling keeps aggro forever.

#27

Ok, if tanking works by spamming swash buckling, that’s fine too. Currently increasing levels in swash buckling only increases the number of enemies aggroed right? Again, I think for boss fights, 10 enemies is enough, so I still can’t see much reason to go beyond c1 Peltasta

#28

Yeah 10 enemies for most fights is fine, especially when your party kills adds fast, though Mages Tower dungeon spawns adds very fast and you can get quickly overwhelmed as its a lot more than 10 (maybe 30ish?)

#29

0.05 for Sky Liner. More damage than Wagon Wheel o.ó?

#30

Wagon is bad to begin with, its purpose is the CC only.

Also, the extra 300 damage Sky did per hit was probably due base damage (Circle 2 skill) and/or attributes. Still doesn’t make up for the incredible short range.

Catar and Moulinet are better for DPS regardless.

#31

I agree on this one. Wagon is basically a combo skill so as not to let the enemy a chance to hit back at you while you charge your catar stroke or pummel them with normals till death xD

#32

Maybe she used low level Wagon Wheel and maxed Sky Liner?

#33

I think so too. I had a false hope that Sky Liner could be a great skill (without attributes).

#34

Would you mind telling me how that could be achieved in an optimized way? I mean, how to be just as tanky as needed while dealing as much damage as I can?

I’m thinking about running a build with Peltasta1, Barbarian3 and Fencer in this next iCBT.

Tanking in many games prior to this one I got the feeling that just being the tankiest man alive isnt enough. I really gotta add some meaningful damage to the party. I dont think that getting more than Peltasta 1 is needed, because all I want is to use the Shield Guard when REALLY needed. Also, Barbarian would give me some sick aggro generation because I’m dealing meaningful damage to the mobs I’m tanking (does that Provoke atribute enters here?) and Fencer, aside from the raw damage, would also give me some evasion while attacking that would combine nicely with the evasion given from Guardian: Evasion.

[Shinobi Knight] Tanking the Shinobi way
#35
#36

peltlander new meta , taunt and stand there with crossguard

1 Like
#37

highlander block looks more cool anyway, it makes you feel like kirito not the ■■■,got one, the real one who teenagers loves and admire.

#38

i dont understand they are both gay

#39

Yes, it does. The blocked attacker will momentarily flash green when a cross guard block works. There will be a debuff icon that indicates that the character has been effected by cross guard. All stab attacks will deal twice as much damage to this character.

There are other effects that happen to a character blocked by cross guard.

#40

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