Pros and Cons of each, especially at end game?
I’ve read both Cathexis’s and Autentist’s guides, and I find that there are still gaps in my knowledge.
From what I’ve read, Barbs really excel with AOE skills (Seism + Cleave) plus their double buff (frenzy + warcry, which would be amplified by Doppel’s DoV).
However, some suggest that Highlander scales better. How? The only skill that seems to scale would be moulinet (multi-hit), and crown (a seemingly good debuff for magic based monsters).
is this for PVE or for PVP?
These are 3 builds I suggest.
I’ll break it down so you can choose whichever suits you the best personally. Everyone has different opinions and varying playstyles depending on their preference.
This Highlander build is the most well rounded build. You have armor break, taunt, bleed and stuns. You can switch from 1H/Shield to 2H weapon play to deal a bit more DPS or tank for your team, though most of the time you will be tanking. Definitely best suited if you’re a group player.
This Barbarian build is if you’re looking for an all-out DPS. You have Seism and Cartar Stroke for crowd AoE and can use Helm chopper and Cleave to finish off any remaining enemies. Helm Chopper and Cleave have extremely small hitboxes so you often won’t be able to hit more than a few enemies without a linker. Frenzy and Warcry benefit even more from Deeds of Valor and you can combo Warcry into Cyclone which does pretty good amount of damage. This tends to be a more solo-based build.
This Barbarian build is similar to the first one but you go Peltasta instead of Highlander. This allows you to pull and taunt mobs, but you loose out on some DPS giving up Cartar Stroke (your strongest strike-based attack) and the extra crit damage. This build is for players who are looking to do mostly solo content but also join into parties if needed.
Honestly, just pick and choose 1 of them you want to do. I would highly recommend the Highlander build because it suits party play a lot better than the Barbarian. Barbs are good if you prefer to just solo things or if you want to deal a lot of DPS, although you will always fall short of DPS when compared to a Wizard or Archer.
Ok, so I’m leaning towards 1 and 3.
Just a few questions:
How am I giving up strike damage of Cartar Stroke if I can get Helm Chopper in the Barb tree? Helm Chopper does more damage with 1,445 damage at max vs Cartar Stroke’s 947. And doesn’t Helm Chopper have way bigger hitboxes than Cartar Stroke so it has more potential damage? (I’m going by the details listed in the skill simulator which lists Cartar Stroke as having AoE ratio of 1, and Helm Chopper as having 3)
As for stuns, which skill in build 1 (H3>D2) has them? I can’t seem to find any skill there that has a stun. I can see stuns in the barb build though (namely in Helm Chopper and Seism).
Regarding bleed, does it really make a difference? I read in Cathexis’s guide that better to go for damage skills than utility skills for PvE play. From what I understand is that bleed is mostly used to increase skyliner damage. Unless bleed really matters damage-wise or has some other effect
How is a Build 1 better at group play than Build 3?
Thanks
PS. Looking to PvE rather than PvP. (I would probably go for a Cata if I’m looking to PvP for the mobility around the field, and the possibility of having a shield most of the time)
Helm Chopper only hits right infront of you. AoE attack ratio is the # of mobs you can hit. Cartar Stroke has a much larger AoE radius.
Lv15 Cartar Stroke is (P.ATK + 947) * 4
Lv15 Helm Chopper is (P.ATK + 1445) * 2
Lv1 Cartar Stroke does almost around the same damage as Lv15 Helm Chopper once you’re around Lv200 (1000 P.ATK). Helm Chopper is good at lower levels when your skill damage factors into the majority of total damage, but as your P.ATK increases this changes. Just do the math.
But it doesn’t matter, you aren’t going to get Lv15 Cartar Stroke anyway and it takes too long to charge.
Umbo blow can stun but you likely won’t be using that too often since it KDs.
It doesn’t make a huge difference, but still helps.
Because Highlanders can debuff magic mobs with Crown and Armor break which helps the party. Barbarians have self buffs that really just benefit themselves.
Ok. Now I’m confused. Doesn’t Cartar Stroke also only hit what’s in front of you? And I thought that AoE attack ratio is the # of mobs that you can hit. But in the skill calculator, Cartar Stroke has a ratio of 1. So it can only hit 1 mob? And where did the 4 and 2 come from?
Oh yeah. I forgot to consider that since both Build 1 and Build 3 have the skill, and was only looking at Highlander and Barbarian Skills
But can’t you debuff as Doppel using Zornhau?
Or is the duration of shock too limited?
The 4 and the 2 are the number of hits the skills do.
Cartar Stroke for example deals (947+your_attack) damage per hits, 4 hits total.
And no, it can hit more than just one mob. Hitting 4~5 mobs at the same time is usually no problem, not sure if it can hit more.
Also, incase you are getting Highlander : You can change the direction you attack with Cartar Stroke while charging Cartar Stroke up.
If you charge it up and notice enemies are running behind you, just turn around while charging so you can hit them.
Cartar Stroke hits 4 times. Helm Chopper hits 2 times. Helm Chopper has a very vertical and small hitbox that will hit only right in front of you, meaning that the skill will not hit any mobs that are even remotely off center of you. Cartar Stroke will basically destroy everything that’s in front of you like a fan shaped AoE attack. Helm Chopper can hit more enemies, but they would literally need to be all standing in the same exact spot in front of you unless you had a linker.
Crown has an additional attribute that reduces more int/spr and it lasts much longer, but you mainly go Highlander c3 for the armor break.
I would recommend the first build, something like this: http://www.tosbase.com/tools/skill-simulator/build/24sj33l4wu/
Highlanders also get the pierce vulnerability debuff after blocking which is moderatively useful if you have fencers and dragoons in your group and often a better alternative than just running around everytime the boss attacks. Just don’t level up wagon wheel or vertical slash because they’re trash.
Highlander is more versatile, has higher DPS, has a knockdown and knockup. Barbarian has more stuns.
I have no idea where you’re getting that from. If you just look at the Barbarian’s skill tree, you can clearly see that Barbs deal a ton more damage than Highlanders.
Not really.
Highlanders have a T0 modifier on bleeding targets with Skyliner.
They can strip defense of the target as well, which gives them some group utility. Barbs just buff their own attack (unless you got a rank 2 linker).
Cartar Stroke means you’re not completely useless vs Plate.
Also, you can get Pelt 1 as a Highlander if you want to play DPS. As Barb, you need to grab Highlander over Pelt.
@erik_umali I’m 225 highlander/barb/dopple and highlander is very weak in comparison to barbarian.
My first swordsman was c3 highlander then I took hoplite for fenestra not realising it doesn’t work with 2 hand swords so I deleted him. Made a new swordy with all the same gear and went barb this time and the difference in damage was clear. My new c1 barb was hitting just as hard if not harder (especially with cleaves bonus damage) than my c3 highlander.
Highlander is a rank 2 class while Barb is a rank 3 class, so of course barbarian damage is going to be higher. The same way Elementalist rank 4 does far more damage compared to Pyromancer rank2.
HIGHLANDER:
Cartar strike : At early levels this skill is insane, it really is. You can kill a boss pretty fast with it pre level 100, but once you get to the high 100’s it becomes very weak because the charge-up can be very situational and it doesn’t scale with anything other than your base damage. In fact none of the highlander attack skills scale with anything other than your base damage except for Vertical Slash.
Vertical Slash : This is affected by how much defence is reduce on a mob by Skull Swing, plus bonus damage for every harmful effect on the mob. Although this has some bonus multipliers they’re still additive to a very low base damage.
Skull Swing : Although the damage is still half of most barbarian skills, the Armor Break debuff it puts on a target is very good, but is it worth sacrificing 3 class ranks to get this?
Cross Guard : The only skill that scales well for for highlander is crossguard, this is based off of your str and character level:
Block = STR + CharLvl x3 + (45 per Cross Guard level).
For a group situations, this only benefits a group if you’re tanking to get the bonus pierce damage on mobs. If you’re dpsing then you aren’t going to be using block on mobs that are attacking the tank or an archer/wizard that has agro and not you.
Crown : This would seem like a very good skill for fighting casters in PVP but unfortunately most casters that are serious PVPer’s put most of their points in CON as their main stat.
Wagon Wheel : The damage from this skill is laughable but it does come in handy. Paired with lvl 3 bash attribute from swordsman you have knock-downs for days.
Skyliner : Low damage but increased on mobs with bleeds, which can be applied by CrossCut.
CrossCut : Low damage applies a bleed debuff which synergies with Skyliner and Vertical Slash.
BARBARIAN:
Em-bowel, Stomping Kick and Giant Swing are by far the least damaging skills of Barbarian and I wouldn’t recommend getting them.
Em-bowel : This holds you in place and the damage is probably the lowest of all the Barb skills.
Stomping Kick : The damage is based on your characters jump height + the evasion from your boots, there is currently nothing that can increase your jump height and once you have the best boots you can get for your level there is nothing else that can increase the damage so doesn’t scale very well.
Giant Swing : The damage is ok but only to 1 mob and you cant move leaving yourself vulnerable. 1 point in giant swing for fun if you like grabbing someone and throwing them away.
Ok now for the good stuff:
Helm Chopper : High damage, hits twice and stuns, but you have to be careful when aiming it, the hit box is very narrow so sometimes mobs that are positioned at an odd angle to you (so not 0,45,90,135,180,225,270 or 315 degrees) will not get hit by it.
Cleave : This is your hardest hitting skill. Cleave has a passive + 50 crit rate and used in synergy with Helm Chopper and Seism’s stun does bonus damage.
Seism : Good damage, Multiple hits and highest aoe ratio damage skill for swordsman class and has a chance to stun, it also stops mobs from moving briefly (about 0.5-1 second) when they get hit.
Warcry : Great for your group, reducing the defence of mobs around you, but this also gives you a buff that increases your attack that lasts 30 seconds. You can also increase the amount of damage from the buff and the debuff time with attributes.
Frenzy : Probably the best swordsman buff for killing bosses. With Frenzy level 10 you get +400 damage for 50 seconds which is bananas but you have to stay on that 1 target or you lose the stack. You can get the attribute to keep half the stacks when you change target but I found this to be a bit buggy when hitting more than 1 mob at a time as none of your skills hit 1 target not even your auto attack so the stacks just kept halving. Not sure if it intended or if it was a bug, anyone using frenzy that can confirm? (I respeced).
(If you’re planning on getting either Warcry or Frenzy its a good idea to get both as they have similar cooldown times and you can alternate between them.)
Pouncing : A lot of people say this skill is weak or garbage and it is, but only on single target mobs because of its odd hit box. This is our only mobile damage skill until dopple’s cyclone. On bosses you can run around avoiding damage while attacking and the damage is pretty good too, normally on mobs my level they die in a couple hits as I’m running past.
Ok, lets have a look.
versatile: able to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities.
Highlander has:
1 knockup(wagon wheel)
1 knockback - not a knockdown(cartar stroke)
3 debuffs(crown, crosscut & skull swing)
1block(cross guard).
With the last 3 skills as just damage(moulinet, skyliner & vertical slash)
Barbarian has:
1 knockback(embowel)
2 stuns(helm chopper & seism)
2 buffs(warcry & frenzy)
1 de-buff(warcry)
1 cc(giant swing)
1 mobility skill (pouncing)
With the last 2 skills as just damage(stompking kick & cleave)
How is Highlander more versatile exactly?
I know its not your fault and your just expressing your opinion from what you’ve seen or been told, just be mindful that you are saying it as though it’s fact, which it isn’t.
Damn, I should have just made a guide lol. The damage is good enough from barbarian skills that at my level I don’t even need to use gear or even a weapon. Here’s me using some of the skills while completely naked on Lv226 mobs. Im also full dex ,so theres no str to boost my base damage.
skyliner and double slash would out damage that lol.
from what I’ve seen or told? I party with barbarians all the time and I out dps them on my high3
Yea it would out damage the numbers in that video BECAUSE IM NAKED lol. In the video with no gear on my cleave crit was almost 7k and Helm chopper almost 1 shot some of them.
You must have some godly build highlander that no-ones know about, please share it with us.
Show us this out damaging barbs you speak of. It’s funny that you’re basing it on how well some random in a dungeon can dps and not from comparing the 2 classes yourself.
@judex Also are you in the early 100’s? Because like I said they don’t scale well high 100’s and even worse at 200+. Around 100 they are fine but will slowly start to taper off.
Skills that aren’t multi-hit in general fall off as new skills with higher damage bases come into play.
Also keeping in mind that Skyliner doesn’t have 0CD like on KR version which is a big reason why you probably feel that way on here.
Yes, because we’re not talking about kTOS, unless the OP was referring to kTOS? then everything I’ve said is void.
Swordman on kTOS is far better than what we currently have and even better now with their latest swordsman update, highlander and barb both got buffs. Well, they call them buffs but they’re more like fixes.
Highlanders are trash on nonbleedable monster.
you might outdps barb on bleeding monster, but in general barbs does more damage.
on bosses, pounching alone will do the same damage or more than all highlanders tool.
I know since I have both barb doppel and high doppel