Tree of Savior Forum

Here's what you could contribute to stop this stupid system

General Discussion
#22

By the way, an opinion actually about me and what I observe (this could be wrong/inaccurate).

But one thing I noticed about Leticia’s cube:
People buys more than Goddess Blessed Cubes.

Why? Mostly price.

As much people will hate me to ask this, I still want to:
A) Do people that actually doesn’t buy cubes would actually buy cubes if IMC simply added each item %?

B) Would revealing items % actually reduce the amount of people buying cubes?

It’s controversial, I know. It also can go either way or force better rates that would affect how much they’re sold that would affect silver<->TP ratio, snow ball effect and actually reduce the amount of players buying it.

But where I want to get is:
The main factor for buying gacha currently is mostly about the price spent.

At least, about me, I wouldn’t spend a lot, but if I had compatible income that doesn’t get too worse with BRL->USD conversion, I’d buy at least a few cubes currently sometimes. But if you actually put all % visible about the cube, I would still not buy because the price.

I also noticed that most people that complains about the the % not being visible actually already buys cubes.

So, what’s my point?

Boycotting really isn’t going to work because a lot of people are fine with current pricing to at least buy a few cubes.

Companies wants money, if they got something that works fine for this goal they’re unlikely to change it in the short term.

There are a lot of ways to improve the system, but let me leave a last question:

What changes to the system do we think that would be a sure-shot for more TP items sales with no chances of making them actually sell less?

I think if we could suggest something that answers this question, we could get some parts of the idea implemented.

I’m sure they have enough data that they currently sell more TP now than when we had only TP shop without gacha. That’s an assumption but most likely a fact, especially if you consider “cash grab” nature of gacha.

The only sad solution I can think of is maybe reorganizing ranks so A grade isn’t too crowded oh both cubes and maybe give TP or Goddess Blessed/Letitia Cubes discounts during big patches or whey they start to do some marketing.

Still, I legit+honestly can’t think of any suggestion at all to make TP shop stuff give more short term income than gacha. As much as I hate it, I just deal with it myself by having too much time to farm stuff :x

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#23

You bring up a good point. Compromise in the system is certainly possible.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. Is what they’re doing now perfect? No,not by any means. But plenty of people are fine with this system to have it remain the way it is.

This is a balance I think more than one game has issues achieving. You’ve already mentioned the solution most probably do: Direct item sales without the gacha at all. Most games [and ToS] do this at least partially. But no MMO is going to do this and only this, with the exception of Maplestory because most of their items are 30 days only, and FF14 and other subscription based games because they get their needed money in that way [and some even then still use gachas].

I know in Japan at least, gacha games are now required by law to report the % chance of their items in an attempt to curb addicts. This does not extend to other countries, but some of them still partially did so. I think that’s why we have the percentage number next to each tier on the cube pictures.

As far as costumes are concerned, they could certainly do better. Event costumes should be more frequent, the fishing event with the butler set and the new Klai costumes increased player turnout. More of that is needed. As for gaining TP, we’ve been overdue for C3 costumes for a number of classes. They can continue to sell these directly in the TP shop, I know at the very least we don’t have the Pyro C3 costume that was shown sometime ago. Lenses and hair dye’s are another thing people don’t seem to mind buying directly, they can especially expand on the eye colors still.

Cubes, at least in my opinion, don’t need a crazy amount of adjustment. The Leticia Cubes are basically $1 each, with an extra if you buy in bulk. That is a decent price [for USD and CAD, at least; can’t speak for others]. I would like to see the blessed cubes lowered to 20 TP a cube as $30 for 300 TP doesn’t get you many at all.

As you have said though, people are paying for the current system as it is, and so they aren’t likely to modify it.

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#24

I can’t say for others but myself, I would only buy gacha if it would only roll cosmetics (costumes, hats, pets, etc).

I’m not against gacha, but only if it goes on the path above, which I think it would bring some good money for them, and probably who don’t buy now due to the way it’s presented, would probably start buying.

But as @WhiteDwarf said, lots of good suggestions made, since CBT stages, fell into deaf ears (or better saying blind eyes).

Now the result is this:

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A bit off-topic: Just so you know, the number above is easily reached by a single server PS of RO that is not even that interesting to begin with. Would be if they fixed the Magic skills for Doram tho lol.

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#25

Path of Exile practically only survives on cosmetics and the game is going pretty strong: http://steamcharts.com/app/238960

Now look at ToS. I’m not going to link ToS’ steamcharts to not trigger anyone but the numbers aren’t really healthy.
And IMC doesn’t solely survive on gacha. They sell tokens too and other services like character/team/pet renaming and more importantly, character slots. You can’t get around this with silver alone and damn pets take up a slot as well.

If they wanted to increase or at least ensure long term profit, they’ll be trying to bring in more loyal players instead of resorting to pachinko scam. Because it only makes it look like they know they can’t rely on player numbers so they rely on milking whales instead.

#26

Just a note, didn’t the game just lose more than 20% of their playerbase last 60 days?

#27

No,but none of those are essential services by any means. We’re talking about the gacha system here, not the side services. You don’t have to have a pet but if you want one, they also have events where you can get one for free. That’s aside from the voucher you get for a free one with certain classes. You can also get a token with silver, so this is mostly invalid and aside from the point.

A bit of deja vu since I mentioned this in our last discussion, but you’re specifically targeting ToS for something almost every MMO does. Gacha’s are nothing new, we’ve already discussed why they exist. The only point you’ve made is about bringing in loyal players, which I think ToS could do with advertising. We’re entirely overdue for that.

#28

23k people online right now 2 months after a content update.
That’s exactly how it works.
Content update -> people play the new content -> people clear it -> people gradually stop playing until the next update.
Next PoE content patch is on March 2 which will bring players back and repeat the cycle and maintain a healthy population or ideally increase it.

The point is that gacha isn’t the only way for them to make money.
This was in response to the whole “we can’t get rid or reduce the importance of gacha because otherwise IMC will go bankrupt” way of thinking.

#29

So if that’s how it works. Why is it population drop for ToS but not for Path of Exile if both had content updates + holidays and presented pretty similar conditions?

Either both games are dying or both games are doing just fine as anyone would expect to be normal. lol

#30

I don’t know. Maybe we should ask IMC why don’t people want play their game while other companies manage to maintain a healthy userbase and survive without gacha scams.

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#31

I never said I thought that way,not sure about anyone else. I just said the game needs whales and at least occasional spenders, because the majority of people will avoid spending money on these kind of games if possible. Those side items outside of gacha cubes are just a way to keep a much smaller, consistent money flow.

The aim of these companies is not to stay off the brink of bankruptcy or to break even. Again, it’s to make as much money as possible. That being said, you’d think they’d do as many other games do and run more than one gacha at once.

#32

No no. You got it wrong.

I’m asking:
Why are you calling it population drop for ToS?
Why aren’t you calling it population drop for Path of Exile?

They both presented 20% playerbase drop within the same period from content updates just as you explained.

If you’re saying 20% population drop is normal for Path of Exile because they’re going to get new content soon. Then it’s the same for ToS, we’re going to get new content soon so we’ll recover in the same way. We’re actually getting a big patch sooner than PoE one.

In the end: You’re contradicting yourself.

So, let me ask again @Memester :
Why are you using the same complaints you do about ToS to actually praise Path of Exile?

Is that your game preference @Memester? If yes, why don’t you just play PoE instead of trolling on ToS forums? Are you a spy from PoE trying to steal players?
Or is PoE game actually dead for you? No new PoE content or it’s too far for your taste?
Any other reason?

#33

Personally my biggest issue with gacha here is the way it’s implemented. There are things I like and things I heavily dislike.

The highest importance for me when going for gacha is usually getting at least something of my moneys worth. Because of the recycle shop buying a smaller amount of GBC’s can ensure that. However to really get what you want is so ridiculously expensive that it eliminates my will most often to try my luck. While the recycle shop is currently enough to maybe buy a set or two 10+1 GBC it’s not really enough to warrant more.
A great way to make it better would be to add wings/armbands and other currently only GBC released items in there for perhaps significantly higher price. This would keep thevalue of the item high while also being obtainable with high investment if you didn’t get lucky enough.
Of course I’d be the most open to just simply reducing the price or raising the probability to obtain high grade items.

LC on the other hand has no back up for your money if you’re very unlucky. (Like myself I bought 30+3 cubes and got absolutely nothing of value.) On the other hand it’s of lower price. Also the items provided are very different in nature mainly purpose of enhancing gaming experience.
I wouldn’t actually require a similar recycle system for these cubes but instead change some of the lower rank items to have more worth. Like mentioned before 1 blessed shard is very disappointing, it could easily be 5 etc. So even when not hitting jackpot you got something definitely useful.

I’d personally be much happier with no gacha obviously but even gacha can be implemented in a way you don’t feel like you’re wasting your money. That in my opinion should be their priority if they plan on preserving this way of making profit.

I highly would support safer forms of gacha like for example having a wings box sold for 300tp with mainly basic nice looking wings and one special with low drop rate etc.

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#34

Because short term population drop is normal. But ToS’ population loss isn’t really short term. ToS doesn’t have the cycle of “patch -> drought -> patch” I described above. Maybe it’ll recover after the next patch? Somehow? Maybe? I don’t think so but we’ll see. The game’s been out for almost 2 years now.

You can check stats for any game you want and you’ll be able to judge how healthy it is and how smoothly things go. http://steamcharts.com/top
Pick a game, it doesn’t even have to be a top 100 game. Check the numbers, check how big or small they are, check how fast they increase or decrease, etc. And you’ll be able to quickly judge how successful or unsuccessful a content update was.

#35

But ToS population drop is currently actually short-term.

image

It actually always recovers after drops and been keeping stable numbers for quite some time.

It actually does, that’s why we’re asking IMC to bring content+balance patches. It’s currently a flaw we try to press IMC to get it faster.

Surviving for 2 years though with stable population for at least 3~4 months.

I did and ToS seems actually fine. That’s why actually I’m actually asking you to stop throwing strawmans and excuses and say:

Why are you nitpicking about ToS but actually praising PoE using the exactly same things? That’s contradiction. The same pattern should be used for both.

Maybe are you trolling just because you prefer another game? Don’t worry, if you apologized about it no one’s going to blame your troll posts if you actually stop with them.

1 Like
#36

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#37

Can we please have a thread that isn’t hijacked by another pissing contest? It’s getting tiring having to read the same arguments over and over and over in different threads.

3 Likes
#38

Don’t focus on PoE so much.
You can take any other healthy game you want and see how numbers change over time compared to ToS.
Ark, Warframe, Paladins, Rust. Never played those.
Or even XIV. This one seems to struggle a bit.

IMC needs to bring people in. They try (or do they?) but it doesn’t work. So they are forced to rely on milking tactics.

#39

They aren’t MMOs but they actually changed in the same way. lol

Most of them actually has 10~20% drop in the last 2 months, just like ToS and PoE.

It works on their limits without marketing, don’t worry. If almost every game out there is having the 10~20% drop, you’re looking at the wrong thing.

By checking the same pattern of most games you said:
Player Increase during New content/Holidays -> healthy drop -> Player Increase during New content/Holidays

That just confirms how stable is ToS actually being lately :thinking:

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#40

Stop doing this. Losing players during content drought is normal.
But in ToS the content drought is quasi-permanent because people log in, reset their character, play for a week to test things out a bit and then you don’t see them again until maybe the next something. This is what happened for r9, where we barely got any players to stay once the reset event was over.

ToS was in steam’s top 100 at some point too. We had 4.8k average monthly concurrent players in May. Then only 2k during r9 peak. And now we are back to 1.8 already and still going down.
Even FFXIV, even if it’s struggling it’s still at 6.3k right now, similar to how it was in feb 2017 or feb 2016.

Anyway, I know you’ll respond with inane stats about how ToS has 40k players but I don’t care about people who don’t play the game.
I actually do, I know many people who came back for the reset event and then left as usual. I care about those but there’s no way I can convince them to come back and play ToS.

I only need to convince IMC about how shitty the gacha is. And I guarantee you the vast majority of players would agree that gacha is pure cancer and will only contribute to killing this game in the long run.
But keep up the good work. Keep defending every shitty decision IMC takes. You are as much responsible for killing this game as IMC.

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#41

Nah, ToS doesn’t work like that.

Just look at chart I posted earlier players in the last 2 weeks:
image

ToS actually has most players only doing Saalus, CM and maybe other dailies and logging off after 1-2 hours.

The avg. of 40k players are still part of the game ecosystem and interacts with market and community even though they don’t queue on low level dungeons nor stays online for long.

The drought is only CCU-related and means that gamers in general will simply play more when there’s new content just as you said yourself:

But for ToS most actually doesn’t even stop playing but only do dailies.

Source?

We still have 40k ish unique players according to my source.

And that I already explained that happens because daily nature of ToS. Actual total population is around the same and stable.

CCU represents lack of new content for ToS.

Whereas Population represents total amount of players that are part of ToS ecosystem and community and affect market and economy.

Here, read this:
You still use the market to buy and post items even if all you do is log in, do Saalus, log off.

You still affect the game economy, be it in small or large part, but you still do. You exist in the game and affect it, thus you’re part of the 40k unique players.

That’s why I try to say:
Just use both CCU and Unique Players. It’s the best way to show the correct picture.

Unique Players alone: 40k won’t show you have problems to find dungeon queues and these stuff.

CCU alone: Won’t show that you actually have 40k players that are part of ToS environment, even if only in the corners, but that still affects market, economy and community.

Most of players that actually heavily interact with high-end items on market are the old players that mostly do Saalus and logout. They’re a big part of the market and game economy. They sometimes affects the market more than who’s playing all the day.

So, can I assume that you consider only new players and old players that are always leveling new characters or hardcore farmers as part of ToS players?

Because you’re missing people who already farmed a lot in the past and accumulated a lot of silver, enough to only do dailies yet still participate in market and economy. And that’s a big part of old players.

Nah don’t worry. I agree with you that gacha is bad.

Just give IMC good arguments that can actually convince them instead of trolling in a forum. Your current method of trying to convince them is pretty inefficient.

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