I’m Level 153 now, and have 200 STR and 93 DEX.
I’ve noticed I’m losing duels to some barbarians that are lower level than me, because they get a hit on me and can stun lock me into a full burst.
On the other hand, if I stun them first (rare since they dodge so much), the rest of my burst is heavily mitigated by their dodge.
Would it be viable for me to start putting all my points into DEX now, and try to make it equal to my STR? (AKA 200 STR 200 DEX over the long run)
This is completely PvP oriented, I’m just scared I won’t be able to hit anyone later on at higher levels, if I’m already losing to some lower level players.
EDIT: Oops, I thought I quoted my previous post, but I’m the Swordsman C2 -> Barbarian C2 -> Corsair C2 -> Shinobi build (pvp) guy
Let’s say I said that competence in PVP was my goal (despite the fact I picked peltasta c1, I’m kinda wanting an all rounder). As in, I’d like to make the choice that’s more likely to give me better performance in PvP as it stands the way PVP is now today.
That was a very informative read. I just skimmed through everything and mainly focused on the conclusion but let me make sure I understand it correctly.
Fulll strength gives more damage (obviously). About 20% more than full/high dex. However, most people argue that the loss of evasion is not a worthwhile trade off. Your calculations have shown that if you max out lunge, a dex build will exceed the evasion cap; rendering the lunge bonus useless. Str builds on the other hand manage to pull about 50% evasion if you add in guardian. So based on these results, a str build seems to be superior.
I have the exact same dilemma for a pvp build should i point on highlander c2 or barbarian c2 if i point on going doppelsoeldner. Im actually swordman c1>peltasta c1
@Cathexis Does riding a mount automatically increases the movement speed of you character without activating trot in cataphract? Because I plan in making just C1 Cata then go C3 on Hoplite then proceed to Dragoon.
@Cathexis Hello ! I would like to have your advice about a… kinda… “special”… Doppelsoeldner Build.
If anyone have comments, you are all welcome too.
Here is the build:
Class choice:
• Highlander C1: For +50% crit. attack attribute, Crossguard and Shock effect of Crown.
• Barbarian C3: For Seism + Cleave… just BECAUSE and max War Cry & Frenzy (for both single and multi targets situation).
• Doppelsoeldner: For Cyclone, full-time DoV and 100% crit Mordschlag.
Stats:
Going for full STR build.
Pro:
I should have consistant damage output with heavy “full buff CD’s” nuke spells. Con:
No DEX.
They can attack under Arrest, but they can’t under Iron Hook.
Depends on the situation. Usually you want to save them for when you need them which is usually big mobs (as in quantity of mobs) or bosses.
So let’s say that you will have 1 big fight, then you save both of them for it as you want to maximize the amount of damage you want to deal. This also applies to important fights that you want to finish quick.
But on dungeons for example, you have multiple big fights constantly as you move through it, so you can use use them whenever they are off cooldown and most likely use them separately to cover the most amount of time possible. Even though you won’t have the maximum amount of damage you could have, you will have higher damage most of the time.
This is pretty common in duels between Swordsmen who stat DEX.
Right now you can’t really do much because their distribution is highly oriented towards DEX at this point of their level. However, there are two likely scenarios for their build to follow:
They eventually stop focusing on DEX and start adding more STR or CON to balance out their builds. Which means that at higher levels you will be in a much better position when fighting them.
They keep on adding more DEX to keep a high dodge rate but they trade some damage for that.
On either way, once you reach a higher level it becomes slightly easier to hit them. But you will also be able to invest into your equipment and upgrade your gloves as well as use Accuracy gems. It is not worth it to invest too much into them at early levels because you will have to change them constantly.
So I wouldn’t say that you need to do a heavy switch on your build for it, although if you are planning to PvP and be able to compete against ALL classes and builds, then you will need to increase your DEX a little bit more. Maybe a 1.5 STR : 1 DEX ratio. Don’t forget to add CON either, because it is very important for PvP.
For now, I think you also need to make sure that you are using the highest level possible of gloves you can and not use a low level ones like Vubbe for dueling.
Finally, just consider that while there will be some high evasion builds at PvP, it is still only a percentage of the amount of people you will encounter in that environment.
There is a point at which your auto-attacks have double animation past certain amount of ping, so if you notice this on your character then you have to stay away from auto-attacking classes and use a skill based class (like Fencer!).
But if you don’t have any double animation on your auto-attacks, I think you will be fine regardless of what class you pick.
You might not be able to do the most fancy tricks out there but there are very few of those and shouldn’t have any impact on PvE.
PvP always favors those with lower ping though, but that applies to every character.
Either way, Fencer is a good class for that if you do want to play that class.
Mmm, tricky, because right now most if not all of the tools from both classes are pretty much negated by a Plague Doctor on the other team.
If/when they nerf Plague Doctor or on a scenario where there isn’t one, I think that Barbarian would be better simply because it offers hard CC to your build, which is usually more useful than soft CC in PvP.
Highlander could be a better option if you had other forms of reliable hard CC on your build to complement the soft CC of Highlander, like Corsair for example.
Because of those reasons, I say Barbarian. But don’t expect much on the current state of PvP in this game.
It hasn’t been fixed as far as I am aware.
It is unintended and could be fixed in the future though. It also could be considered a exploit, so while I don’t think they will do anything about it besides fixing it, I would still say that you use it on your own risk.
I will address your other question on another post since it is a long read.
If you stay at C1 you max both of them (or Pierce at 4 if you took 1 point on Sychro Thrusting).
If you stay at C2, both of them will be at level 8 at least, so I think the use of those 2 points is better on Pierce but they can go for Stabbing for PvE.
If you go into C3, then you want to max Stabbing and leave Pierce at level 8.
It does, barely (+4 movement speed, but you can’t dash with it). It won’t really give you much an advantage without Trot though.
Looks more like a PvP build for me, but it is fine if those are the classes you want to use in PvE, it is gonna be pretty good for burst damage with Highlander’s Cross Guard + Pierce damage (Hexen Dropper and Shinobi).
I would probably use an All-around build heavy on STR, since you want to be able to Critical Hit often but without dodging TOO much while maintaining some good scaling of damage and Cross Guard with STR.
For skill allocation it could go many ways, but make sure to get Cross Guard, Skull Swing, Hexen Dropper, Kunai and your clones/Bunshin.
What is your goal with this build though?
Here are the general changes I would make, regardless of whether you are pursuing a PvE or a PvP build:
(PvP) Get level 1 of Wagon Wheel for an extra CC skill.
(PvE & PvP) Get at least level 1 of Helm Chopper for an extra skill which can stun and is strike type of damage.
(PvP) Get at least level 1 Giant Swing.
(PvE & PvP) Mordschlag is only a CC skill, it’s damage and animation aren’t particularly good. So it is best to leave this skill at level 1.
(PvE & PvP) You want to get at least level 1 of Zornhau, Zucken, Redel.
Full STR isn’t going to work for PvP.
For PvE it could work, but it isn’t very efficient. It is better to go for an All-Around build that gives you some DEX so you can have a more reliable way to land critical hits.
Yeah, essentially, I also showed that with a disadvantage in critical rate, STR still outdamages DEX builds. I showed that through gear STR can still achieve reasonably high critical rate and evasion.
Looks more like a PvP build for me, but it is fine if those are the classes you want to use in PvE, it is gonna be pretty good for burst damage with Highlander’s Cross Guard + Pierce damage (Hexen Dropper and Shinobi).
I would probably use an All-around build heavy on STR, since you want to be able to Critical Hit often but without dodging TOO much while maintaining some good scaling of damage and Cross Guard with STR.
For skill allocation it could go many ways, but make sure to get Cross Guard, Skull Swing, Hexen Dropper, Kunai and your clones/Bunshin.
That was pretty messy to read (and so many edits), but neither side is right or wrong.
Both sides make good points for defending their builds but both of them rely only on numbers and forget the actual context of the game.
I think it is pretty easy to miss these things without playing the game at a high level though and trying out different builds on different environments (especially compared to other classes).
I am not entirely convinced by the formulas, at least from my experience playing multiple builds and also experiencing content on kTOS all the way up to 280. Since I can’t deny or confirm their accuracy, I will just leave them as a gray area.
But leaving those aside, here are my points about this:
First, we have to consider that not even Hop C3->Doppel->Dragoon gets away with a true “Full STR” build, eventually it has to add DEX and CON to it’s build even if not a major amount of points (and this is considering good gems and equipment like Max Petamion).
And this is with Finestra Level 15~18, which Fencer doesn’t have.
Second, even though I recommend a 2 DEX : 1 STR ratio for High DEX, I have also said that this build will adjust itself to allocate more points into STR at higher levels as the person playing the character evaluates his build and decides whether the evasion/critical rate are at a comfortable level to start investing more into STR.
In reality, the High DEX build ends up as a 1.5 DEX: 1 STR or even 1 STR : 1 DEX depending on equipment.
Which ends up being a much better scenario since you can use the tools on your build to your advantage and switch between different stats to fit different situations without losing much on either side (damage or survability):
Using Guardian to have more Evasion when required.
Use Gung Ho to have slightly more damage when more Evasion isn’t required.
Take out the CON equipment for Earth Tower, as the DPS a Swordsman deals in there is not relevant.
Use Critical Rate equipment for opponents with higher Critical Resistance than average.
It is just better to be able to switch your build around to fit different scenarios rather than limit yourself to play in one way. This is also much better for min-maxing as it allows more room to breathe without depending on stats or equipment.
Finally, this is something that I pretty much ask most people in this thread:
What is the purpose of the build?
Ok, you have a STR Fencer. What is it’s purpose in game? Deal slightly more damage? To what end?
We have to consider that during party content (like Earth Tower), the damage a Swordsman (not only Fencer) deals is pretty irrelevant as the real damage comes from ranged classes and the Swordsman is mostly assigned a role of tanking / kiting and off-tanking.
Same applies to other type of content. Swordsmen in general deal pretty low damage compared to High DPS builds from Wizards and Archers, and even sometimes Clerics.
Fencer is no exception. While it is a great offensive class, it’s strength is not dealing high DPS but having consistent and versatile DPS.
One of the comments on that Reddit thread mentioned that Dragoon has higher DPS against bosses compared to Fencer. And this is true, Dragoon has the highest single target DPS against bosses from all the Swordsman tree, mainly because of the benefits from spears and the tools the spear classes get against bosses.
This includes different variations of Dragoon, like Corsair, Doppelsoeldner, etc. But it is still not close enough to the huge amount of DPS a Wizard / Archer can do.
It is particularly important for a scenario like World Bosses, where only the highest DPS parties get the loot. So I would rather take my chances using a Dragoon rather than a Fencer if I really want to compete for them (even though this game isn’t as competitive as others when it comes to World Bosses).
But coming back to the purpose of the build, a STR build is better when it has a purpose and meaning behind it.
For example, @xechidna is aiming for a Fencer build that uses Cross Guard to increase the DPS of Fencer with Pierce type of skills.
This is a great use of a heavier STR build for Fencer, because it is using the extra amount of that stat to better scale Cross Guard and it also doesn’t want to dodge too often otherwise it would be extremely unreliable to use Cross Guard.
Another example would be a Fencer that adds Doppelsoeldner to their build. Because of the use of Deeds of Valor the damage it deals will increase considerably. Using the same reasoning, you don’t want to dodge too often because Deeds of Valor doesn’t stack on dodge so it wouldn’t be reliable that way.
So, what is my conclusion?
Pretty much my conclusion on all of this is that a heavy STR build for Fencer could work if it has a purpose behind it. But it certainly doesn’t apply to every Fencer build out there.
I don’t have to use numbers or “math” for this, because while numbers can look pretty, without the context of how they actually play in the game or actually make any significant difference they lose meaning, relevance and are misleading.
Also, anyone can play whatever build they want that fits their playing style. There is no “best” build to follow and no one can tell anyone how to play the game.
That is also the main reason why I encourage everyone to play the way they will have the most fun with and to not be afraid of experimenting. Trying to min-max in this game doesn’t accomplish much and it is better to focus on the enjoyment of one’s build, especially with so many classes and builds available in the game.
For all thses build, stat would be 6 str 2 dex 2 con
I’m not trying to make a retard build but just i used to play warrior and assassin classes on other mmo but for this one it’s kinda hard to balance between these two classes
Which build from those i listed is the one which bring a good dps pressure in pvp and medium/good cc?
From the findings from both @Faile and @xechidna, Cross Guards adds a second hit to your Pierce attacks which deals around 50~70% of the total damage from the original attack.
So it stacks with other vulnerability skills like Hoplite’s Spear Lunge.
I think the other two builds are better for PvE simply because they have Peltasta. With Swash Buckling you are more welcome into party content at higher levels, but it is not necessary to have if you would still rather follow your original build.
If you would want to explore one of the Peltasta paths, then overall I would say that Hoplite is somewhat better because Spear Lunge can buff your Shinobi and it also has good synergy with Dragoon it you would rather pursue that class.
I think that it is going to depend on which classes you like more and whether or not you would like to use spear on your character. So pick what is best for you depending on your personal preference.
That is quite a big list of possible builds, but since all of them have Corsair in it I think the final choice comes to how creative you want to be with your character in PvP.
If you would rather have debuffs from Highlander, or stuns from Barbarian, to high AoE DPS with Doppel and even Shinobi hiding mechanics.
All of them are great tools to have for different reasons. There is no real answer as to which one would be better, it depends on your skill as a player.
But for your stat build, I think that an All-around build is the better way to go for PvP as you want to have a good amount of CON to survive, while keeping DEX at a decent level to hit people with high evasion and the other portion of your points will go into STR to deal good damage.
But I have to say that you did a great job balancing the tools in your builds. All of them have a good amount of soft CC (debuffs) and hard CC (stuns or Iron Hook), so none of them lacks on either area.
So yeah, just pick the classes or tools you like the most and I think that you will have a good time getting creative with them.
(But don’t expect too much because PvP in this game is still very unbalanced.)
As i understood from your previous answers, highlander works better with shinobi as it increases pierce attacks and barbarian works better with doppel for the ton of aoe skill which reduce the choice at 2 builds:
You can also increase Pierce damage with Hoplite’s Spear Lunge. So both Highlander and Hoplite work in that aspect (and both of them increase Corsair’s Hexen Dropper too).
You can’t have Corsair C3 with Shinobi, since they both share Rank 8. Even then Corsair C3 right now is a pretty weak circle and I would not recommend it.
And if you want to use that Shinobi build, I think that is pretty good, but the same applies to your other builds.
