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The real question is why does swordman needs such drawbacks on buffs that aren’t even that great to begin with when priest can give 1500+ block to the whole party without a care in the world.
You could add some aggro on their skills though, at least pelts since tanking is supposed to be their main job.
Well for that swash buckling just needs to be buffed.
To be honest, I always play without provoke and I find that when just using lv5 swash buckle sometimes it’s hard to maintain or keep the aggro.
But who cares about the taunt (unless you make it workable in TBL, like that cryo frost tree)…at least make pelt be able to tank without a huge atk decrease (penalties need to be removed)
Well the Pelt requirement is actually a Swash requirement.
It’s possible to gather a mob via Running and jump attacks (you don’t lose momentum or your sprint that way), and I do that if Swash is on cooldown… but it’s very inefficient compared to the hit-button-win-game of Swash and requires the swordie to even know that 66j.a is a thing. Most I’ve seen don’t, if the way they hit tree crystals is any hint.
Additionally, Swash raises the maximum number of mobs you can hold the agro of. It’s all around really solid for luring.
@Spaghetti and @nuclearmissile and @fatedhour The agro system is honestly not the problem. Swash is oft misunderstood- it's for mob gathering and emergency agro re-acquisition. Not for holding agro.
Swordman has a circle 1 attribute called Provoke. Most people don’t know about it unless they either make a swordie, or encounter two swordies in a Siauliai run that actually pick who’s tanking, and one of them specifically asks the other to or mentions that they’re turning off provoke.
While swordie damage is relatively low compared to a Wizzie/Archer, provoke amps all agro generation by +500% (net 600%). While one of you might not beat the Wiz/Arch in agro gen, six of you definitely could. If you aren’t holding agro in spite of Provoke and the occasional emergency Swash, you might wanna stop doing nothing but holding C (or being full CON pelt/rode pre-helmet (the shield damage amp will probably fix that), (un)fortunately).
If anything needs to change, Swordie 2 and Highlander 1 all need to get some flavor of mob gathering ability so the Pelt-or-bust rule for PvE goes away.
Highlander I’d suggest a form of stance (conflicting with Hoplite Finnestra) that increases the automatic agro range and enforces autoagro for them regardless of map (call it “Presence” or something). Swordie 2, say, an attribute that generates passive agro in an aoe around them (“Menacing”, maybe?).
Obviously Swash would be best for mob gathering due to range, but with either of those, a quick sprint in a circle would gather a mob just fine. Swordie would get the benefit of even higher base agro generation for holding a boss, and since Highlander is supposed to be the offense option, it should have no problem holding agro at 6x assuming its build isn’t retarded- but would get to do less work to gather a mob than a Swordie 2.
Pelt would still reign supreme on the tanking/luring since Swash is what it is, but you wouldn’t be useless in party play as a Highlander or Swordie 2.
@Pururu and @Spaghetti again Majority of Priest buffs have material costs, though Stone Skin doesn't. Nor does Monstrance (which is something like +30% +10 Dex), but its casting animation is hilariously bad for a 20s buff, so using it has its own price.
I’m not saying the penalty is justified, I’m saying there’s a reason some of the priest abilities don’t have drawbacks and are as good as they are- namely, Aspersion, Blessing, and Sacrament.
@Pururu specifically, I would be impressed by the 275+ SPR you'd have to have to be at 1500+, but then, 500+ is enough block to significantly reduce physical damage taken, and that's achieved at 25 SPR (on rank 5).
I know swash isn’t for holding aggro. That’s exactly why I said you use damage to hold aggro but the problem is that both buffs significantly lower your damage that it doesn’t matter if you have 1000% aggro, what good is it if you poke for 100 endgame? It’s not like full con tanks spend millions on attributes for such little return. You make this point as well when you mentioned 6 swordies holding aggro from a wiz/archer. LOL do you not see how funny that is?
The atk penalties, even compared to the priest buffs, are not justified. Meanwhile archer and wizard get scaling buffs at rank 2 and 3 with NO penalties whatsoever, and archer can share it’s buff. And there’s also buffs like stone skin and even safety zone, no penalties and no consumables needed. My point is that swordies get the extremely short end of the stick compared to other branches and this is on top of all the other shortcomings.
I added it unfortunately after you saw that post, but a full con build will get some reprieve when r8 comes out; Murmillo is getting an attribute that amplifies all shield-based attacks from Pelt and Rode. This will likely be multiplicative with the other attribute bonuses. You then need to add in the fact that they’re skill attacks, which have their own flat bonuses that aren’t reduced by atkdown debuffs. The damage will be fixed, sure, but Murmillo will likely massively increase what damage they do have.
Of course, alternatively, a 2-circle dip in Hoplite gives you access to spears (which have +size damage that is higher on bigger targets; bosses count as Large for that) and Finnestra, which is a (at r10) 100% uptime +20% block amp as well as gives you a very high amount of crit and optionally increased AoEAR. It also gives you a nice bag of goodies like pierceweak which lets you amp your own damage by +50% for the duration.
Thanks to Finnestra, you can then forego some CON for a bit of DEX (acc) and STR (dmg and blockpen) while still maintaining your obscene block without using Active Guard- as well as making Active Guard’s block even higher. Toss Murmillo onto this at r8 for magic block, and you’ll both out-tank and out-dps all the full CON builds in pretty much every situation. Even better, you can use something like Brandish, which gives you, by itself without refines or your stats, 515-553 patk on bosses.
Regardless, from a balance perspective, full ANYTHING (not just CON) should never be viable, period. Balance derives itself from choices and trades- never being good at everything. On stats, that means something the tabletops call MAD: Multiple Attribute Dependence. In a well-designed system, single stat builds should have so many crippling drawbacks that they simply cannot function.
As for the penalties, yes, they're too high. Some penalty assuming more benefit, is acceptable, however.
I would personally say switching Guardian to mdef and moving more of the stat changes into the scaling (with a higher benefit at max rank) would likely make it worth while.
Meanwhile, giving High Guard the magic blocking effect would instantly make it extremely good, and would let it lean on its 50% uptime as what keeps it from being too good. The attack reduction might need to be toned down a tad still (maybe -25% instead), but it’d be quite solid then, and not need to be converted to percentile bonus to be viable.
Alternatively, switching HG to a toggleable buff that gives you some of the benefits of holding C but with the ability to attack at -50%, and having rank increase how close to hold-C in block it is but decrease how close to it in atkdown would also make it usable.
Going back to MAD because this is an important concept… Swordies really have the shortest end of the stick by being the only class that is actually MAD.
A swordie needs all three of STR, CON, and DEX. Any build lacking too much of one of those three core stats is going to have a very hard time. Additionally, they significantly benefit from SPR due to its nebulous CC resist effect and their small mana pools. The only stat a swordie currently never cares about is INT- and that might change in the future, too, with the potential for a “spellblade” class.
Archers are slightly MAD, needing a bit of CON, and a mix of STR and DEX. The catch is, they can go ham in STR still due to their free level scaling on the stats DEX increases. SPR still gets an honorable mention due to their small mana pools.
Clerics are… not MAD, but are at least diverse. They’re viable as primarily any stat, but beyond “some CON” you can do practically anything you want with them and craft a class build around it.
Wizards, however, are the real problem. Their stat build is fairly fixed: some to all CON, rest INT. In spite of their reliance on mana, SPR scales very poorly for them, so it doesn’t even make it to the table. Magic doesn’t care about Evasion or Crit, so Dex is only for eva (low return on investment), and strength is the wrong attack stat. This is the biggest thing that needs to be corrected. Wizzies need a reason to vary their stat build.
@abluejelly do hour posts have to be this long? I was only talking about pelt buffs and comparing them to other buffs.
Anyway, you’ve agreed with me in that the penalties are unnecessary which is my main gripe. They’re just completely unjustified.
About skill dmg and murmillo, we don’t know the exact value if their shield buffs but we know it’s some kind of bonus which is great. However, lower patk means lower overall damage, even from skills. A swordie not using these buffs will always out dps you and lower the damage means your damage multipliers will still yield lower damage. Losing two thirds of your patk means lower damage being multiplied.
@Spaghetti
Since the key complaint about the agro system from your previous post seemed to be that full-CON builds can’t hold agro, I felt I needed to argue that means the agro system is working as intended. I also offered an alternate build path which would produce something similar to a full-CON build in not-dying, but be loads more viable at everything, and went on to poke at other, similar balance issues the game has.
The explaining of more things than necessary is a good/bad habit of mine. Good because more people walk away more knowledgeable. Bad because I’m prone to tldr.
As for why I focused on full-CON, someone in an offensive build could still use the lower levels of new Guardian or even current High Guard so long as they are ready with Swash should someone pull off of them. I was doing just that with an almost-full-CON build at r5 on a Pelt 2 Hop Squire- it’s not THAT hard to hold agro if you don’t go full CON, so an offensive build should be able to eat new Guardian without losing agro.
The problem also isn’t that the penalties are unnecessary. On the contrary, I’d say Swift Step needs to have the pdef penalty on it increased and Stone Skin needs to be given a material component cost as well as shifting more of its block rate into the scaling (say, SPR x Skill Level + 100).
The real problem with Pelt’s buffs is that the penalties are too high for the benefits. High Guard offers a flat block increase that is nowhere near high enough to justify the -50% atk. Guardian’s -14% atk at r1 prices it too high for even the people who didn’t mind the -14 flat and no Gung Ho for the 18% evasion.
They do generate tons of singular threat based on later classes.
Assuming you didn’t derp and go Squire C3.
Fencer, Shinobi and Doppel are basically the strongest damage dealers in the swordman’s late-game then Dragoon.
The base class has a 6x aggro modifier on all damage it deals.
a 5 hit attack or an attack with a bonus 400% modifier
both end up as 3000% Aggro generated which will compete with 3000% damage moves presuming similar base damage.
Aoe is a bit more of a pain due to ratio and radii of moves.
Swordsman didn’t need extra def but we sure as hell need more dmg. Even a low con archer or wiz can slap on full plate, buy a 1k silver aspersion buff, and easily hold their own against physical dmg for the most part. In this respect, guardian got nerfed.
Now it’s even harder for a sword to meet the minimum in holding aggro. It doesn’t matter if we have a 1000% aggro passive if your pokes don’t hurt at all. And then there’s the part about surviving the attacks from bosses and mobs after you’ve got aggro. If your high con, you can survive them but you won’t be holding aggro really. If you’re high str, you’ll hold aggro but won’t survive easily. High dexter is more of a hybrid between the 2 it seems.
I know this Guardian nerf anabled me to get more hits to proc my JollyRoger, that’s that.
Also elemental/bonuses based damage from weapons/gears are outside the damage reduction it does,my Venier’s 286holy damage is still intact.
I know what will save us all from this ■■■■ of trouble thinking, switch the bloody attributes of Guardian and Swashbuckling.
Guardian: eva>hp
Swash: hp>eva
Unfortunately, same can be said for those bonuses and Crit.
Extra def is valuable in harder content.
A skill like the revamped Guardian shows its worth on mobs that well actually hit hard, not level appropriate trash mobs in the overworld with sub 1k attack. Yes Aspersion will cover those just fine.
Almost always seems like Tree of savior hits up all the new MMO players, despite most (I presume) being veterans.
“A skill wasn’t fulfilling its purpose, so the devs adjusted it towards that! Grrr.” oh come on the ■■■■ on, happens all the time.
And what purpose is that exactly?
Block and Evasion both outstrip pdef by miles at post-200 content just as they did pre-200, because they completely negate both the damage and the secondary effects (knockdowns/backs, poison, stat reductions, etc).
Armor type switching outstrips pdef by even more post-200 than it did pre-200, as it’s an actually percentage reduction. Hell, switching from full plate to plate3 + leather top takes blunt from 127.5% to 71.25% - that’s a reduction of over HALF the base damage.
And Active Guarding with a shield already gives +50% pdef if you go Pelt.
Meanwhile, old Guardian had a nice little niche as the only evasion support Swordie gets before r6 (or, currently, ever if you don't wanna use a rapier), in which lv1 of it with the maxed attribute was -14 flat atk (roughly 2.33% for me at lv235) for +18% Evasion. It was fine for evasion builds, useless for everyone else.
Now it’s -14% atk and +10% pdef at rank 1. It’s now useless for everyone, as it costs too much attack to justify on an Evasion build, and didn’t solve the problem of it being bonus pdef. MDef, that stat that protects you from the ONE thing that Eva/Block can’t protect you from (until Murmillo for block), would have at least had a chance to make this have a use. But it’s pdef.
The one person that would actually want this new Guardian doesn’t exist- or is simply bad at theorycrafting.
That’s not adjusting it towards “fulfilling its purpose”, that’s removing its only purpose.
Evasion isn’t removed.
Pdef is increased
Attack reduction is increased.
Nothing about it in referance to evasion has changed whatsoever as an attribute.
The base skill, now creates a notable amount of defense in exchange for a large amount of physical attack.
If you’re taking Guardian as a defensive skill it is better then it has EVER been at dealing with physical defense.
As a defensive supplement in an offensive build, it is weaker.
Block/Evasion are still RNG especially when evasion has a clear hard cap that prevents it from being 100%.
Magic damage is supposed to be hard to deal with in general.
The two damage sources aren’t equal and are not supposed to be, nor is peltasta supposed to handle it particularly well.
The idea that guardian is your catch-all skill to throw on has changed. You use it when you need extra physical damage mitigation which both its base effect of increased defense and its attribute of increased evasion provide. High-Guard is no different. Throw it on for extra Block or for Rim/Umbo Blow and then take it off.
Difference between Guardian and holding C?
Despite reduced damage, you still do damage while under Guardian, while Holding down Guard, you stop attacking, period.
For those who don’t want a dedicated defensive skill. Swash, Umbo and Rim blow are there to play with.
For those who do not like those options, don’t pick the defense class which is straight described to you as having large defenses and attracting enemies towards it. That is blatantly not a mainstay pick for high offense oriented players.
Bosses/Instanced enemies later hit 1.5-4k+ attack.
They don’t all get blocked and at times, you don’t want to C guard, nor do you want to blow up for taking a trail of 3k+ damage. Reduce the damage while still attacking (at reduced damage output) over holding Guard and getting more defenses, but doing no damage.
For me, the pdef increased by 80% because I use Shade Dancer/Skirt.
If I used at-level pdef top/bottom instead, it would be closer to +280%… which still pales in comparison to the drum roll please:
Attack Reduction increase of more than 500%
And I’m not even maxed. That increase in the penalty scales- the reduction gets WORSE the higher level you are (or use). While the pdef increase improves as well, it’s never going to be anywhere near the increase in damage lost.
The evasion has changed- because the “cost” for it has changed. It’s no longer a flat loss of atk which gets less and less noticeable the stronger you get. It’s now a MASSIVE percentile reduction to your attack.
As a purely defensive skill, yes, it’s stronger. But it also completely neuters your damage output for a very poor gain in defense. You don’t even have to be trying to deal damage to feel that. A full-CON character using this is even more likely to lose agro because he’s insisting upon “saving” a pittance of his massive health pool with it.
Also you don’t quite seem to understand how Active Guard works. You don’t have to sit in it and do nothing to benefit from it. Holding C only during active frames is not only very doable, it gives you both more protection than new or old Guardian and at less of a dps loss than new Guardian.
The skill was useful as it was. The skill is useless as it is currently. If you think otherwise you’re either a fool or a troll.
Everytime you press Guard you are not attacking, it doesn’t matter if you hold C for an extended period of time or if you tap it, when it is active you are not attacking. This is inherently a trade of offense for defense while active. Jesus christ, try harder.
Full-Con characters are a waste from the beginning to the end.
Two pairs of equipment amongst the overwhelming characteristics of equipment in the game don’t justify leaving an entire skill being completely garbage for leveling outside of an attribute. Multiple skills have this issue, and ideally they will all be adjusted to have value in investment, whether niche or general purpose. Guardian did not.
Later enemies (in instances) and bosses have higher physical attack. You can attempt to block this, but they still chunk for sizeable portions.
For this purpose Guardian exists as a tool for physical damage mitigation. There’s no “Useless or troll” unless you insist on having the conversational skills of a wall, the skill clearly fits the niche of mitigating high amounts of physical damage.
In general game-play this has little value because aspersion covers the majority of overworld enemies which makes up the majority of the game.
For 1.5-4k attack enemies however this is not insubstantial but I’m beating a dead horse at this point.
@Delcas wth? You’re comparing holding down c to a buff?
And again, the penalties aren’t justified. Swordsmen have the absolute worse buffs in the game overall. -63% patk for +35% Def and +18% eva? Why does the penalty have to higher than the bonuses? High guard already gives a flat +240 block with a -50% atk. That’s -50% atk at high guard level 1. And then you have -100 critical rate. That kills what critical rate you had. It’s like they expect you to take no -physical- dmg and deal very, very little dmg. And because of it, you have a hard time holding aggro cause you have no dmg.
Guard increases your stats (Block, and defense with the Guard attribute) for doing no damage, thats literally what it does.
Guardian increases your Defense for dealing less damage.
That can be directly compared, particularly when you’re choosing your defensive options and whether to use them simultaneously or not at all.
Tree of savior whatever reason, has a lot of these trade offs in the swordman class and its not simply Peltasta.
Gung Ho (which will likely be updated since its mutually exclusive with Guardian). Deeds of Valor, Bunshins, are all other examples. Shield Charge has a built in damage penalty too.
Not what I’m talking about however or want to.
Current Guardian fits the role of jacking up your defense even further when you’re taking a crap load of physical damage. From 101 physical defense and over, it’s all buffed as a defensive skill. It does curb your damage, because it does,it has much more merit specifically in its value as a defensive skill than it did before. There’s really not much to argue there at all.
"I prefered when the skill was near non-existant in its effect but carried an attribute I like"
You might as well have moved the attribute to Swashbuckling and most people wouldn’t give a chit that Guardian had no investment value niche or otherwise OF ITS OWN because 10-35 flat defense is a hard justification of 1-15 skill points when you’re eventually handling 900-4000 attack enemies.
Now the skill is starting to actually look like something, has a real niche of its own before its attribute and we’re going off like its a global nerf, when for the skill itself its a straight buff, because without that attribute it had inconsequential gains to defense, and now the opposite is true. The only real suffering is that with its attack penalty it doesn’t fit well into offensive builds trying to rely entirely off the evasion. Even still at level 1 investment 14% attack won’t = 14% less DPS because of Skill damage.