Tree of Savior Forum

General etiquette for dungeons and missions - let's make queues great again!

General Discussion
#81

This is what people essentially want at the end of the day:

1)To have a party with an appropriate composition (dps paired with supporters, and lvl ranges with 7 or less difference).
2)To have a party with competent players (players who are not afk, and who know how to use w/e skills they chose effectively)
3)To find a party fairly quickly.

The current queue system generally fails at meeting all of these points.

When it comes to #1, you can’t argue that premades would prevent people from having any parties because the queue will literally pair you up with 5 swordsmen; If people consider that an acceptable party matchup (which you are saying you do if you support the current queue) then theres absolutely no reason they can’t just make that on their own.
Then couple that with the issue of people commonly being in parties with a 10-15 level difference (which makes mobs hit for double damage and more iirc, and take much less damage than normal). Queue is garbage.

When it comes to #2, every so often you get someone who is afk for a long time/the whole run in your party when using queue.
When you have someone that is clearly not playing their class correctly: No one wants to bother trying to correct them generally since they themselves are probably too busy fighting correctly, and the party is basically only intact for the active duration of the run. Premades in general are better suited for actual chitchat/discussion and also if someone is determined to play a specific way that you don’t like you can just choose not to party with them again afterwards (not an option in queue).

When it comes to #3, when a queue regularly forms parties that take 35 minutes to clear what should have taken 14min under reasonably normal circumstances, then you can no longer argue that queue meets #3 at all.
Also, currently even if there are a number of people willing to forsake queue’s EXP (which is only there to shackle players to queueing since otherwise the exp is near awful), the playerbase then becomes divided and thus it’s actually very hard to have both premade and queues functioning simulataneously: They drain from each others’ player pool and as you can see from the current situation ingame its inevitable that people will unwillingly flow into whichever system gets a bigger hold of the playerbase, even if they know it’s not a sound choice.

I know you’ve said what you’ve said and that really you didn’t need me to explain this to you//you already know queue is terrible but just want to force yourself into groups, but I don’t mind reiterating it because I truly believe queue needs to be changed/removed from this game as soon as possible.

1 Like
#82

Maybe an easier alternative solution then is to offer people the ability to exclude themselves from matching with certain players.

Perhaps this could be done in a smart way that doesn’t permanently negatively affect a player though, perhaps they will learn and change their ways at a later date. Perhaps it could instead rate plays with a like/dislike, dislikes being kept private of course. Dislikes would stop encounters with that player for a number of weeks.

This would not break search for that player and would allow players the ability to avoid the bad ones.

This is obviously going off the point that in both examples it requires parties to have a bad experience with a player once in order to know to avoid them.

This would fulfil 2 and 3 but obviously not 1. I have a feeling this is a situation where you can only have 2 out of the 3 options though.

#83

Yeah that incentive doesn’t really work, and basically acts as something to force people to queue leaving no one left to form pre-mades. What’s even worse is you can’t queue with 1 or 2 friends at all, so basically either you miss the fat exp or you go into an awful gamble.

The only incentive that would make sense for queues to have is a buff in stats - something to help both players with less-than-optimal builds and unfavourable party compositions (such as no healer at all, or 5 swordie gaming) so they can actually clear that dungeon in a more comfortable manner (or clear at all, i’ve literally been in queues that simply failed the dungeon due to the timer due to constant bonfires, bad players, bad party comp and all around bad builds all together).

A exp boost does not achieve that. All it does is force everyone to do it, even people who wouldn’t otherwise have queued. The runs will still be just as bad.

I’m honestly surprised queues even came to be in the first place, having played icbt2 myself there never seemed to be much asking for that from the playerbase as a whole? Pre-made parties as the only option seemed to flow nicely, despite people being aware that certain classes performed significantly worse than others at that game mode (or in general). The only actual issue would be that we had free unlimited megaphones to recruit people with, which we obviously don’t now.

This is entirely different than grind parties btw. The thing with grind parties is you’re not limited in regards to how long you can do it for each day, so a lot of people will naturally try to get the most out of their time with an optimal party. And even then, an “an optimal party” isn’t even a full party most of the time - a swordie with pelt (and literally anything else for the other ranks), a half assed healer and either a good aoe DPS or a linker coupled with single target centered classes is enough to sweep maps almost as fast as possible barring respawn times. (Chronos are obviously amazing, but way too rare outside their own guild/friends)

The bottomline is, people ultimately can’t and shouldn’t expect other people to put in 20x the work they do for the same rewards all the time. If you’re leveling an Alchemist for example, you should expect to have a harder time leveling in general. I mean, are you gonna split that mad profit you make for afking once you’re alch2 with the people who grinded with you for weeks to make that happen? Surely not. But here’s the big spoiler: If you built your alchemist in a conscious way to try and help as much as you can with the ranks you have i.e. linker or thauma, then you’ll pmuch always have a spot. You’re gonna see big signs saying “HEY, PARTY’S THIS WAY HONEY COME ALONG”. Now, if you decided to be a unique snowflake and went wiz2cryo2pyro1alch? You’ll PROBABLY be getting some good old “■■■■ you” a lot of the time.

Anyway, this is why it zens me when people refuse to go pelt1 for no good reason and then complain about this stuff. Like, all a swordsman needs to do to be loved and cherished and be the true gods of any grinding parties is take that ONE circle at rank2, a rank where you’re really really REALLY not giving up anything relevant. It doesn’t even put you in a “tanking role” as people love to bring up. It just so happens you’re literally the only class that can taunt a whole screen full of enemies while everyone else can’t even aggro more than 5 at once, let alone grab their attention in half a second by casting a skill.

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#84

Although a bit complex, if IMC could figure out a way to determine whether a player’s circle choices are more support/healer/tank/dps oriented they could sort the queue by roles to allow for decent party composition in random queue.

I made this suggestion last month but the forums were still full of circle jerking white knights who just said, “THAT’S WHAT THE 600% EXP BONUS IS FOR YOU’RE GAMBLING WHEN YOU DO RANDOM QUEUE LOLOL KEK ^^”

But no. That system is bad. I would be all for removing the 600% exp bonus and having a more rounded queue system

A vote kick system usually helps with this. However, unless they fix classes like swordsman and fix the queue system so team compositions are balanced properly, this vote kick system is going to be seriously abused in the current state of the game.

I can already see the SLEW of rage posts and people threatening to, or just desk flipping and quitting the game over being repeatably vote kicked from groups for silly reasons like, “Went DPS swordsman” or, “Party didn’t give a healer so they vote kicked some random guy” <— this would cause them to lose a dungeon run for the day too which is REALLY bad.

So people abuse this and just AFK cuz why not? These are serious flaws with the game that should have been addressed during BETA… not dealing with this now after the official launch.

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#85

A Dievdirby’s advice I hope will make your dungeon runs a bit easier:

If you see a Diev3 on your party, look out for the Ausirine Statue before SZ charges run out. They will usually set this up before that happens so you can still be invulnerable for another 15-20 secs while waiting for SZ’s CD. This will mitigate unnecessary deaths/damages while Heal and SZ are on CD.

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#86

In a theoretical world where pigs happen to fly and you got a response that basically made it completely clear IMC wouldn’t or could not remove search. How would you improve it instead?

As for grinds. I would think the solution is either to improve balance in such a way that other builds are more useful, or at least “less useless”, which gets them kicked. OR to give more ways to rank up.

This grind party problem is all born of the main issue of the game being unfinished. Grind parties would be unnecessary if the quest route existed as it does with the rest of the game. It will solve itself eventually.

#87

Well i believe the first half of my post addressed that somewhat?

  • First and foremost remove or change the “incentive” on queues to a stat boost instead of exp.
  • Secondly, why are bosses the most soloable part of any dungeon? You can easily kite all their attacks and kill it in a minute or less. Bosses should be harder, less forgiving, and a tad more rewarding in exchange. It’s hilarious how one person in a 5-man queue can end the run for everyone in 2 minutes tops by simply running to the boss and killing it. (As a P.S, i do not agree gating every dungeon like 115/145 is the way to go, as it takes away the option people have to rush the boss in their own time, with their own party)
  • Third, i obviously don’t know since it’s not available for us but the specifics of how the system decides to ready up a queue party can probably be improved? Like to wait longer for a cleric, for example.
  • Lastly, allow people to queue together with 1 or 2 friends (or 3 really, to get 1 other player from the queue search). It literally makes no sense to not allow this.

That’s what i can think of off the top of my head right now.

This much is true. ktos has been getting new quests almost on a weekly basis, while we’re in complete stasis for any meaningful updates.

Funnily though, i do kinda wish grinding was more rewarding than it currently is before level 200. Not that you should level faster than questing, but atm it’d be completely foolish to try as the respawn timers and exp values are just awful. Would be nice to have the option to not have to do the exact same quests everytime you want to level a new character in a timely fashion (this of course includes making grind spots more diverse, instead of 1 good map per level range if even that)

EDIT: Oh yeah, as one last point about queues specifically for missions: They really should find a way to make mission bosses ignore the stat scaling penalty vs lower leveled players. It’s ridiculous to be put into a queue with people 15 levels higher and get 1shot by every attack as a result as well as doing awful damage yourself.

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#88

Well i remember initially thinking the colors on the class rank icons were a indicator of this in some level - but some just don’t make any sense. Like the gold/yellow 1s for example. They definitely could do this though.

Yeah that’s pretty much how it goes around here, it’s extremely asinine.

This is 1 of the many reasons i’m flabbergasted that they pulled out this queue system out of NOWHERE, AFTER the many betas we had between us and korea. :no_good:

#89

Pelt , please don’t just hold down guard and do no dps

#90

Actually, I enjoy lacking a healer. Makes the dungeon less mind numbing. Makes cc useful. Makes teamwork happen.
Well, in my experience anyways. Sounds like you guys are having a hard time.

#91

random dungeon que was a stupid system from the getgo because you were penalized for playing with your friends

but now the game is so dead that if i random que at the same time as my friend 90% of the time we end up in the same dungeon so w/e

problem solved LOL