Full CON: the future of ToS builds?

[Asriel]

and why u think u need 80k hp?? im doing valcoffer with 40k and I;m fine, didnt die even once inside instance, if somoene want more CON then go for it but its srlsy not necessary at all

Because :

1. Not all people have a highly upgraded, highly transcended gear set
2. You’re probably running with a meta Kabbalist C3 healer that provides Ein Sof and/or CON via Life Line
3. 80k HP allows for a lot of mistakes/breathing time

I’m talking about times post the healing changes. You will need to rely more on HP potions or have a dedicated Healer for ± every content to survive if you don’t have a high HP pool and defence.

Of course, it is not necessary, but it is a lot more beneficial than having to rely on others so much in the harder content.

Btw, I’m not supporting full CON, I just stated the benefits of putting your points into CON instead of INT.

Splitting points between CON and SPR seems to be more reasonable tbh.
No need for INT at all(you can get INT from gear as well, not just CON).
And, there is always the option for Wizards to get Transpose via 1 Rank into Thaumaturge,
so you can have the feeling of full INT, full CON and 50:50 on the same character.

[Sayurichan]

This isn’t new, CON is the main stat of the game. Pretty sure it’s intended though,

If it was intended only for CON to be the main stat, the devs wouldn’t have given us the option which stats to invest our points in.
It’s more likely we have balancing issues between the stats, with CON being far better than the rest or INT/STR not giving enough for the points invested in them.

[nizidr]

They need to nerf CON, its the sick meta that makes the game lack of a sense of personalized builds

Instead of nerfing CON, i wish they returned rank modifiers for base stats depending on base class (swordsman = str, wizard = int, cleric = spr, archer = dex), so the higher the rank - the more potent investment into the designated stat becomes. Or instead of affecting direct base stat - rank modifiers may affect derivatives from that stat to keep buffs brom becoming ludicrous again. That would also add a little bit of “power up” feel whenever you reach new rank.

[thepurpleknightmare]

No you get the stats as secondary stats, it’s not like the other stats aren’t valuable, this system is very simular to Conquer Onlines, it’s intended to be a way to offset the issue with PvE MMOs (or really all MMOs, but especially PvE focused MMOs) There is too much damage in the game, damage is everywhere, damage comes for free, it’s the priority of most players, it’s always more effective than the equivalent of defense and (this part I get so mad about) you only need 1 type as opposed to the 3 you need for defense. It’s like how in Pokemon tanks are terrible in a 1v1 because they have to be spec’d to deal with a sweeper but a sweeper just needs to out speed and one shot which can be done with the 510 EVs you are allowed.

Almost every game that lets you choose your build has this issue in fact, LoL has it.

Having a source of defensive ability that you can sacrifice for offensive power at a far lower value is good, it allows the min maxers and “high skill PvE’rs” to get that edge out of their abilities, but it also saves you from being a 30k hp archer in a world where even bad classes like Lancer do 90k a hit! If they were to nerf CON PvP would be further destroyed, but keeping it the current system doesn’t hurt PvE and the old system (pre re-rollable gear) was a system of choice based on skill, are you good enough to do 50 CON and 300 STR/INT in PvE? Or do you go 120 STR for the accuracy and put the rest in CON to “play it safe” (A style for one who doesn’t care about min maxing)

It’s an okay system and although it’s been ruined by the fact that you can have 300 of every stat and full invest into the main stat (CON) that’s not necessarily a bad thing either, it’s less good sure and it’s no where near the ideal but this game will never be near the ideal and this still works well. In fact for PvP it works better, if we were still doing the old system where you had to invest into STR for accuracy and DEX for Block Pen, Swordsman really would be under powered and we’d have a lot more people bothered by the fact that the PvP rules aren’t in Gem Feud.

Too many people saying “Nerf CON” without considering all that CON actually does, it’s like seeing a person die to a poisoned apple and being like “Let’s get rid of all food!”

It’s important, for PvP and the future of this game, there are a hundred things to nerf before even considering nerfing CON. Block specifically, MAYBE but not CON.

[Ersakoz]

Lets do away with the lengthy discussion,

Current Content requires high HP investment.
Been running Velcoffer and high HP is definitely required. Team is almost full CON or high CON with 100k hp+
However we have included builds that cannot go high CON, such as atk speed builds. For that we compensate with HP gear/costumes and ein soif. 45k/55k - > 90k ++
Even with the unworthy wizard CON/HP multiplier, it is still strongly recommended for wizards to go full CON
for Velcoffer.

Current content requires HP if you want to have a really smooth ride.
Dead dps = no dps.

However, other content such as ET / HG / CM does not require such a high HP ceiling

[therhay]

My full INT ElemenWL have almost 100k HP with the items/squire buff and I use one handed mace+shield in Velcoffer. I can reach almost 12k m-atk with Thauma buffs, I don’t think CON is needed unless you don’t want to invest on gems or HP gears.

[southskystarsss]

Physical DPS needs DEX for attack speed (auto attack Archer) and BLOCK PENETRATION FOR PVP. But thats it.

I agree that with the current trend, full CON and high anvil high trans weap is the way to go for like 90% of the classes in PVE

[adrian.agulto.rn]

Wow. I reckon everyone here has a point of their own. It’s just that you are all not agreeing on the same thing. Why? Because if it works on one person, that person will start to argue that whatever works for him should work for everybody else… wtf guys?

State for what purpose your main character is.

Miki right now is a joke. I’d say go full dps with no con here

If you wanna do velcoffer raid, your main character must be invested on seriously. And to say this, being geared af you will most probably not need con and go full dps again

BUT if you are trying to bring a semi-invested toon to an end game dungeon raid as dps, wth you expect? Not die? A semi invested toon will need con to survive so you can do dps.

Every situatiom is different. Stop arguing among yourselves

[Ersakoz]

lol thauma dps?
Velcoffer thaumas are linker 3 buffer/physical/spirit link slave

Not that i want to doubt you…
Wizards have the worse HP per CON ratio multiplier in the game after CON rework.
An average wizard with 350 CON would be around 70k HP ++ or 130k at 780 CON.

Say you get full CON gear , with min maxed costumes.
2.3k HP x 3 = 6.9kHP
67 CON from emg shield
43 CON from primus 340 HG glove/shoe
Ausura plate pants 57 CON
Solmiki Top 84 CON
Bracelets , solimiki pair 22 CON each = 44 CON

Thats like 300+ CON.

I dont see how you can reach 100k hp
with ein soif yes, no ein soif hmmmmm.
Or are you saying you went full INT and hit 100k HP+ with Transpose.

[Ersakoz]

and why u think u need 80k hp?? im doing valcoffer with 40k and I;m fine, didnt die even once inside instance, if somoene want more CON then go for it but its srlsy not necessary at all

You have a very busy Kabbalist baby-sitting you, and your other 3 team mates are not relying so much on heals. 1:1 baby sitting. All I can say is your healer is bearing the brunt of the load and he is a very good support player.

It might work for you but it isnt very optimal for players who have connection issues or not so familiarized with velcoffer’s skills, i would reconsider slotting in a dps with more survivability to save time. ( rebuffing/repairs).

[diane]

If you have good gear and party, no need for CON (in Pve)

---

lol thauma dps?
Velcoffer thaumas are linker 3 buffer/physical/spirit link slave

Not that i want to doubt you…
Wizards have the worse HP per CON ratio multiplier in the game after CON rework.
An average wizard with 350 CON would be around 70k HP ++ or 130k at 780 CON.

Say you get full CON gear , with min maxed costumes.
2.3k HP x 3 = 6.9kHP
67 CON from emg shield
43 CON from primus 340 HG glove/shoe
Ausura plate pants 57 CON
Solmiki Top 84 CON
Bracelets , solimiki pair 22 CON each = 44 CON

Thats like 300+ CON.

I dont see how you can reach 100k hp
with ein soif yes, no ein soif hmmmmm.
Or are you saying you went full INT and hit 100k HP+ with Transpose.

He wrote ElemenWL…squire buff… with Thaum buffs.

[Ersakoz]

Considering 0 accidents should be okay, and full CON gear.

Guess SEA is more reserved in playstyle and looking for optimal success rate with accidental scenarios included.

The softest character i brought in so far was my 90k HP falconer with 110k HP ++ with squire
pdef, pdef 9.6k mdef 12k. Still had to be careful, avoiding spit and breath all. Refraining from laying unneeded heal tiles at phase 3. (Phase 3 Ground Shatter can asorb/reverse heals ) You dont want to go from 25% HP boss to 100% HP in a matter of seconds.

However lets not deviate from the main topic, guess HP is still a required factor in Velcoffer. Other Content , not so much. 1000 dmg vs HP. Would pick HP any time.

At least newer players reading this thread can have a rough idea of both sides of the coin. This way they can read and grasp the general concept and mechanics so far, and finally make a decision for themselves.

I dont judge ppl who go full INT/STR. End of the day , lets just have fun

[diane]

The only place you want/need high HP is Velcoffer now. New players dont do that fast. All other is easy, people faceroll all of ET. Full int and 4x k (+squire, 5x k) HP is ok for like 99% of the game and not hard to get.
Sure, go CON if you want, but barely ‘needed’ in pve.

Edit: my ElemWL is not done yet, will be around 85 k (with squire, before einsof) and we had like 90k people in our Velcoffer runs doing fine.

[chohsan]

Points in INT/STR are probably pretty negligible when compared to points in CON/SPR. I don’t believe either INT or STR scales with level. We get most of our attack rating from our weapon(s).

You have to be deliberate to gain HP. Also, because the HP gained from CON scales with level that means each point you add to it increases in value with each level you gain.

[ziherl_rok_phx]

My favorite phrase back from when I was still a raid leader: You can’t DPS while you’re dead. God I hated glass cannon type of players.

[yodish92]

this is just a symptom of bad design

there isnt any other alternative defensive set up’s or stats to layer or focus on. .besides getting a shitload of hp through con

the 100% armor and resist buffs to peltasta’s guardian is in the right track though,
they need to introduce other mechanics like life steal and alternative damage reduction so the defensive meta doesn’t stagnate to hp stacking…

[therhay]

Awakening 1000HP+ in each Solmiki part and Red Gem x2 on Armor and Pants and Yellow Gem in Boots. Squire Salad buff +30% HP. Note that I said HP gears not CON gear I know the bad scalling for Wizards.
The build is Wiz3>Elementalist3>Warlock3, no Ein Sof needed.
I use the same set on all characters and most of them without points on CON, the only characters that I went full CON was Musketeer (Stupid Sniper Serenity movspeed reduction) and Murmillo Tanker and the reason is only because I can’t move freely with them so I get hit pretty often.

I think I am kinda off-topic now, so my advice to OP is to go full CON because I don’t think you are that well geared, get a good party composition and you will be fine, damage loss can be compensated with thauma buffs and allies debuffs on the boss but you getting killed with only 1 hit will not help your party.

[alavien1]

imo u should watch some streams from this fight haha u made my day so u want to solo this raid or what :D? i dont get ppl here they want to go for raid with staff lvl 1 and without gear and with THOUSAND of hp/con and beat it without help of party members xD oh my…

[draconis]

I’ve seen Velcoffer vids with people over 400k hps. Sure that probably helps a lot. Otherwise even with 30k hps you can still reach 80k+ if you have a Kabbalist in the party that can cast Ein Sof. Hell I’ve seen a vid with a party of 5 clerics, all having Kabba in their build lol…

The current problem is twofold:

1. HP scales perfectly well with CON: 100 points of CON = 10k HPs, which is a lot; investing in +HP is now limited, as you’ll get +1000/2000 or so with random properties (headgear, armor); investing in +CON is the way to go (4 armor parts with +30 CON = 12k extra HPs!); on the other side, ATK doesn’t scale well with STR/INT at all: 100 points of STR/INT = 250 PATK/MATK, which is great at low level, but negligible at high level; investing in +ATK works fine (having five +7 blue gems on a primus will give an extra +700 MATK, which is almost like having +300 INT on the weapon… that’s absurd).

2. All content can be tackled with high DPS/low HPs, except CM stage 7 and Velcoffer; for those, you clearly need to be well prepared (this means playing hardcore, scumming for the best equipment and using a lot of ressources to upgrade everything). Consider ET lolopanther area: it’s level 260, but would you go there with an unprepared level 260 alt? I guess not… Basically, the casual player will stick to all content except Velcoffer, use some spare time to get stronger, wait for new content to be released (from the update post about Velcoffer, it is clearly stated that the legendary items are better than the future tier of items – which means that next tier, probably level 390 or so, will be the way to go), get stronger again and only then go and clear some Velcoffer raids.

Considering the INT/CON dilemma, I wouldn’t really bother. Both ways are fine, but having +CON just for one dungeon doesn’t seem like worth it. Unless you want to try PvP…

[Amber_Rei]

Too many people still don’t understand how important this is. I’m gradually raising con, and my damage didn’t really suffer. If you want to enjoy challenge 6-7, pvp, and velcoffer, you want health and high defenses! Damage is very important, but after that you have to build upon survivability.