Tree of Savior Forum

đŸ”„ Stats post-rework: A little too useless?

General Discussion
#1

##A little story

This observation came to me when one time I resetted. I used the stat reset potion immediately, logged off, and logged in the next day to try and play with a different build (Sw1 Pel1 Hop3 Squire2 Murm1 - Foxy Taxi*!). I was then back to R8 with the char BUT forgot to redistribute my stats and just immediately went in to a mission to test.

The mission went well. There wasn’t much different to the run duration (8m+) I had with the previous build. After the mission ended, it was then I realized I had ZERO distributed stats. So I thought “Hey, that was with no stats? Wow it must be even easier with stats on!”

So I did run the mission again, now with FULL STR to test. The run duration was a minute or two faster, but maybe I just got a lot more knockdowns in the 1st run.

I resetted before the 3rd run (you can get to have 2 reset potions if you got the 1st one in just a few hours before 12am EDT so you can get another reset) and got 100 CON with the rest going to STR. Again, there was barely any difference in run duration.

All these was of course with a +15 Geras Spear.

I had a similar observation with a Wizard I have regarding INT.

[details=Click here for some math against lv.323 Kugheri Balzer (cloth, medium, beast, non–flying)]0 STR
Dunkel Short Spear (lv. 40)

4k headbutt
1.2k spear lunge
8.2k synchro

//

267 STR
Dunkel Short Spear (lv. 40)

10.2k headbutt
3.6k spear lunge
20.7k synchro

+152% increase in synchro damage

0 STR
+5 Khasti Spear

9.8k headbutt
3.6k spear lunge
27k synchro

//

267 STR
+5 Khasti Spear

18k headbutt
5.7k spear lunge
38k synchro

+41% increase in synchro damage

0 STR
+15 Geras Spear

17k headbutt
6.5k spear lunge
40k synchro

//

267 STR
+15 Geras Spear

~23k headbutt
8.2k spear lunge
52.4k synchro

+31% increase in synchro damage

—[/details]

##Possible implications?

I haven’t tried transcending anything yet, but if the game keeps the stats this way I expect STR and INT would even further be less significant once you get to high enhancement and transcendence with a high-level, high-grade weapon.

Here’s how I thought the stats are currently:

###STR = meh

pAtk tends to falls off with better weapon, enhancement and transcendence. Accuracy is probably the only good point with taking STR right now since we can no longer get it from Gloves, and only through Green Gems on gloves and Accuracy bonuses from gear.

Compared to pre-rework: BlockPen on STR before made sense since not getting it means those who went full DEX would sacrifice without that substat (except for Catas/Lancers). The STR bonuses, particularly for Swordsmen, made the stat have more impact even when Transcendence was already around.

###CON = ok-ish

No more pDef. Is it just me or is HP recovery a little too slow now when using pots especially when I have high CON (IIRC recovery from pots scale with CON)? Stamina boost might be good for some classes (anyone tried Stamina-Agility build for Enchanter yet?) Block is nice, but it wasn’t as good as before (seems a flat additive now per 1 CON, or was it always like this and I just didn’t notice before?).

Compared to pre-rework: The removal of pDef is something I don’t know what to say - I guess it’s fine for how it affects gearing now. Overall the changes to CON is ok.

###INT = meh for non-Thaums

Great if I’m a Thaum as it scales up really well with the buffs. Otherwise, I might as well go full CON as a non-summoner.

Compared to pre-rework: Before, not much if you took less of it, slightly better if you had a lot of it. People with endgame gear doing PVP usually skip on this stat or do a split, and pump CON instead. The INT bonuses for Wizards back then made the stat at least worth to invest even by endgame. For every additional class rank, you used to receive a bonus of 10% INT.

###SPR = meh for non-summoners

Great if I’m a summoner (Sorc, Necro). At some point in SPR investment, Sorc Summoning will no longer drain my SP to a point that it reaches zero. Going full SPR seems the way for Necros if I focus on summons alone. I kinda miss the status resistance, but I’m glad the took that out of the equation as it was P2W with the +90 SPR bracelets and it makes P.Barrier status resistance a little less of a joke since not everyone would have it.

Compared to pre-rework: It got better. As I don’t have a Cleric (well I do, but I don’t play it anymore), I’m not sure how this stat benefits them outside of shop buffs. Anyone tested with Bokor zombies or Paladin Conversion yet? BlockPen on SPR before didn’t make sense but the slight increase in mDef did.

###DEX = meh for non-PVPers, non-AAers, and those who can hardly stack Crit Rate

I don’t have much info regarding the ASPD boost it gives but I’ve been hearing from people that it’s barely noticeable to a point due to ping so you can never really go full DEX or something (my SR can only get 200 DEX, beyond that there’s no increase in ASPD at all). CritAtk is somewhat a joke due to how hard Crit Rate is to stack unless you’re an Archer with Rogue in your build or your hellbent to get all the Crit Rate you possibly can.

Evasion is borderline a joke as well for non-Archer2/Peltasta (non-Hoplite) classes (and they decided to take evasion out of leather set attribute). BlockPen is probably the only good thing with DEX but that’s for PVP only (doesn’t seem to be really needed in PVE as far as I’ve experience with 320+ mobs with zero DEX investment). As a 100 CON Pel1 Hop3 Murm with buffs on (around 500+ block, not using C block), a Cannoneer with ~150 investment in DEX can still blast through about 1/4 or 1/5 of the time.

Compared to pre-rework: Accuracy on DEX made sense before as it has always been with most games (why STR now? you don’t need to be strong to be accurate :confused:). I don’t know much about Crit Rate as I think it’s the #1 reason why full DEX was a thing so I guess removing it was a good change? Evasion is weaker now than before but since nearly everyone avoids full DEX now, it’s gotten better PVP-wise.

If I am to try and provide a reason for all these changes, the closest thing that comes to mind is that IMC wanted us to play more as a party so we benefit from each other’s buffs - but what of our lone wanderers out there?

What do you think of the stat rework? Are these changes justifiable? Please feel free to correct me if there are errors in what I wrote. :smiley:

*Foxy Taxi is a Squire camp taxi service for the citizens of Telsiai. Full exploration, warp anywhere as long as it’s possible. Please contact ZeroFoxGiven in-game.

8 Likes
#2

i think their goal was to make players spread their stats around instead of putting everything on one stat.

#3

If they dont remove trascendence, str and never would be a thing

#4

I wanted to think that way, but right now spreading stats will even more barely make any difference except for getting some CON in PVP, and in some cases as a shield-wielder in PVE.

3 Likes
#5

My characters went from 36 con rest dex to:
200 dex rest str 0 con for aspd-type (monk, SR, fencer to a certain extent)
full str 0 con for physical damage type (sapper)

IMHO can’t say that rework was that effective, as we can see on some characters it just moved from full dex (full crit rate) to full str (hard to rely on low crit rate, hard to get crit rate now without spending and sacrificing much, better dump all the stats to raw damage). If not for aspd purposes, i, for one, wouldn’t probably put much dex.

1 Like
#6

Just as you put it, stats really suck. It’s just a noob trap. I think after the event I will reset my stats and not put in a single point and wait until something is added. I mean why bother? Everything you need is gained so much better through gear and stats don’t affect gear.

3 Likes
#7

When I saw the patch notes for the damage balancing recently, which focus more on gears now more than stats. First thing that came to my mind is $$. Just like any other f2p mmo like maplestory, gear = win. I seriously hope IMC wouldn’t try to sneakily change where this game is heading towards patch by patch. End of the day p2w is what turn more players away.

2 Likes
IMC Please Do Not Release P2W Leticia's Secret Cube!
#8

Stats are meh? Of course it is. This patch’s re-balance made the game heavily rely on itemization more.
Right now, lvls1-200 can be carried by Pardbuffs+Cafri just as before but now with much stronger Blessing, lvls200 and beyond relies 90% on equipped gear’s stats.

Some retarded skill modifiers aside, RO did well applying hard(equip based) and soft(stat based) stats in their damage calculations, IMC should do the same.

7 Likes
#9

You can pretty much play with zero stat investments as long as you have decent gear. I have soloed mission no problemo. XD

3 Likes
#10

i was waiting for someone to make this thread. I believe the game is now more heavily reliant on your weapon than ever. For example elememes can go full con once again if they have a upgraded and transcended weapon.

At 330 full int only nets you around 900+ matk which can be covered by investing in a good weapon.

2 Likes
#11

Wait
 isnt the 900+ MATK you mentioned factored multiplicatively with skill factor?

#12

stat is buff a bit in terms of item not invested points

game isn’t change much about stat just some skill have effected on it , so choice wisely because transcend didn’t given any HP now and no more gloves and boots to give us any accuracy or evasion.

#13

Like they said, weapons are still the main part of the damages you deal (up to more than 70% if you apply enhance/gems/transcendence values). And they claimed the least invested STR/INT stats, the more the damages will be based on your weapon, so in the end STR/INT aren’t that needed, except if you got “no use” for the other stats, I guess.
Offensive stats only give a tiny percent of extra DPS, they really don’t bring much. Everybody should just embrace our Lord and Savior: SPR \o/

4 Likes
#14

Well, for one, comparing the total time the mission took lessen the value of your damage, because there’s 3 potions to the mission where your attack power doesn’t matter: Running between rooms, killing the initial furniture and protecting the torch.

Let’s say the time your attack makes no difference is about 3 min total, and your 0-stat run was 9 min.
This means your combat time was 6 min or so.
Then your full STR run cut that by 1-2 min? In the best case (2 min cut) that’s 33% less time it take to kill things, which actually means 50% more damage required, i.e. it’d be the same as if you suddenly got 100 enhance attribute on all skills from 0 before.
What I said is a little biased for the damage part, but you get the idea.

Next, it’s not an error per se, but your perspective is warped by the fact that you HAVE A +15 WEAPON.
Sure it’s a lv 170 weapon but your attack is probably still higher than what normal player might have at the level. (How many people even have a practo weapon? Or even a single practo to make a weapon at all, never mind farming the Portium or hell, the DPK drops)

1 Like
#15

Thanks for pointing those out. I guess the example I gave wasn’t accurate as a representation in some points. These were mostly based on gut feel. I will try to post some numbers instead.

Not really. It’s even just comparable to a +6 Pajoritas Spear which is market trash for most people (in Telsiai at least).

1 Like
#16

At least I’m a little confident now to say that STR investment diminishes as you get better gear. If only I had a high-trans lv.315 purple or orange weapon.

1 Like
#17

I was sure DEX would be useless with the crit rate nerfs, but what I didn’t anticipate was STR being useless with the huge base weapon damage. IMO DEX is an okay stat now with the right build (either autoattack based or skills that actually scale with attack speed) while STR is a very minor boost. Even CON doesn’t seem worthwhile anymore since you have more base HP and CON HP bonus is class based now so you can’t get a super tanky wizard.

2 Likes
#18

You’re looking at the relative value compare to total damage, instead of ‘actual gain’ though.
The correlation that STR being less % of your total attack means less % of your damage comes from STR is
duh?

By that same logic, trans 10 compare to trans 9 would have less impact than trans 1 to trans 0 (the actual gain is the same, 20% of the weapon’s base attack), does that means trans is worthless?

In term of actual gain though.
Lv 40 spear - 8.2k synchro -> 20.7k = about 12.5k
lv 170 - 27k -> 38k = 11k
+15 geras - 49k->52.4k = 13.4k

So assuming that the 1.5k difference on the latter 2 falls under damage variance from the weapon itself, that 267 STR adds a fairly consistent amount of damage for you.
And even at the worst case here it’s still a 31% increases which is frankly still a huge difference.

Well, given that anyone who goes there to farm will likely have equal or better gear, that’d probably be more of the reason why it’s 'trash’
For anyone just getting to that level? It’s probably the best weapon they can get without having to farm for days to get enough silver/material for the ‘not trash’ weapons.
(Side complaint: This is why any suggestion about ‘new server is better for new players’ feels BS to me, in a fresh server with little access to practo weapons, even a ‘trash’ like that would be valuable and thus ‘new player’ won’t be able to afford it because of supply-demand means it’d be cheaper in old server where it’s ‘trash’)

#19

Sorry if I missed your point, but mine was that considering this was already skill-modified damage (the highest damage I can put out with my build) as we reach high-trans, high-enhancement on endgame gear, that more or less flat increase would become more superfluous except for those who likes to min-max damage output. We could be hitting for 200k or 300k and that increase would still be that.

Wouldn’t investing points in having more Block Pen and Evasion from DEX or more Block and HP pool from CON be better by endgame?

#20

Gears>Everything Else. Welcome to the world of modern MMOs. Stats have always been a fickle “Illusion of Choice”, but I guess it’s more evident now for some people who didn’t realize it at first.