Tree of Savior Forum

Episode 11 deal the final blow to RNG equipment

#1

It haven’t been only a full day since Episode 11 was released and it already showed up something that is quite unpleasant, and after all the fastest thing in the universe isn’t light but raging NEETs on the internet, this may or not be a bug but since no one filed it as a bug nor an official announcement was made i’ll see it as a feature.


Since the first iteration item identification had fundamental issues tied to value range, back then it determined the gem socket which had a clear and simple roof, it was as devastating to have 1 socket when the cap was 4 as having 10 STR at a 80 cap. The sole fact you could reach the cap with enough dedication was a great deal even if players had to roll both slot quantity and equipment rarity.

When the system changed into random stats it proposed to be a solution to the limited equipment diversity from traditional gear and this was surely exciting but once you get into how stats are assigned and distributed things don’t go that well. Not all stats are desirable for all base classes and even some stats are so niche that only certain item combinations or classes can make use of it, that excluding stats use at all.

There are 4 random checkers in the identification system that makes it a nightmare by default - you first need to get multiple stat lines, then those lines can or not be from the group you want, then you need to get the stat you want from such group and roll the value of it to be in the higher spectrum. It should be visible that the chance factors are against players, but before we try reaching an estimate for the odds let’s take a look at the table for each stat.

This is where things start to stink, stats from Great division are, as the name implies, great as a whole and will be of high value for any player regardless of their build, critical rate is an exception as support characters don’t care much for it but it’s still a nice trait. On the good division we have those stats that are valuable but not as desired, they’re strong and useful but it’s not something you’re looking for as a first choice. In the situational division we have the turning point, here stat value is aligned with builds and characters, Magic Attack is a great stat for wizards and clerics but when it is in a bow it has no value, the remaining stats that don’t follow those rules can have no value depending on other factors.

Considering that the two top divisions have 8 stats only and the average of situational for a regular character is 3, stats are limited to 11 out of 53 being slightly above 20%. All the remaining stats are either additions that don’t really help you at all and only serve as a perhaps useful bonus, it gets even worse when checking the division distribution for each color as red is 2/21 (9.5%) for the desired setup, that ignoring that the critical side relies on another stat and can be completely useless in certain cases (4.25%), assuming all stats have the same chance of appearing. Before Re:Build green was the best of the colors as each stat had, even if minimal, something to provide to all classes, SPR being a source of max SP and SP recovery was the ultimate wild card but now being limited to magic classes it has no value for 60% of the classes.

Now it’s time to do some math and see how likely is to have a really good gear with this system, we’ll take the most optimistic approach on it with all stats, lines and colors having the same weight. Our variables are:

Line (1/4), Color (1/3), Stat (2/21 R, 3/5 G, 2/14 B, 6/11 P), Value (variable, take in 0~100%)

The first barrier already has a 25% chance for maximum output and 50% for good output, going along both blue and red lines have the worst stat distribution which means it also has 50% for better stats opposed to the 4.25/9.5% red and 14.2% blue. That alone limits the chance to 4.7% for the best outcome and 7.1% for a good one. Then we have to apply the color and each stat distribution with green having 60% favorable stats and 54,5%, using the latter for as a pessimistic estimate we have 8.2%. All that ignoring the value range for all stats (with 25% chance for a high end value), equipment rarity and the fact 2h weapons get two additional lines. Applying the last layer to regular equipment we reach the 2%. Of course we can’t ignore the reidentification system that has way lower RNG as the first filter is skipped but that doesn’t help the odds that much for about 4% for optimal gear.

At this point things look reasonable for green and purple lines as their desirable chance is 4 to 6 times higher and only 3 colors can be taken on each gear, however this isn’t the case anymore as episode 11 allows all equipment to have all color lines available regardless of the equipment type. The former 8.2% of great line setup is now replaced by 6.2%, a mere 2% drop in chance shouldn’t be a big deal but when the first two filters determine if the equipment can be rerolled or not it is a huge deal, specially when it the stat lines themselves have 80% chance or more of providing an undesirable stat. Despite all that this isn’t the worst, those assumptions take the pretext that all elements have same weight in chance which may not be the case, even then it is possible that the math used to tackle it was too optimistic and the real value can be significantly lower than that.

As a last consideration to address i’d like to position myself as favorable of the idea behind such change, after all further customization is always welcome, however the overload of stats in a blue and red group don’t make it worth to try as all the good stats are flushed along when rerolled, furthermore the mechanics provided don’t make these bonus stats desirable even in possible niche scenarios - If a game element has appeal to no one or to an insignificant fraction of the playerbase it must be reviewed. Lastly, for this system be satisfying it either has to trim down inconsistencies (such as PAtk/STR rods and INT/SPR bows) or have equipment to drop easier as it gives players more chances to find their ideal setup.

PS - This is also ignoring the fact higher level equipment has higher stat cap and each update that changes equipment level widens the gap between good old equipment and great new equipment.


Please share your take on this small change to the RNG based gear and also your terrible line alignment that came up with the new episode.

2 Likes
#2

I agree with a lot of your criticism but am also open to looting chance weapons and attack line armors.

It is definitely a feature. I believe this is the sole reason for the 50% unidentified gear drop rate increase to challenge mode but I’m not sure it will keep the number of 3+ Green line armor coming into the game as pre-re. If anything a ‘god-roll’ has become much harder to obtain.

  • Str+Con+CritRate+Patk Armor
  • Str+Con+CritRate+LootingChance Weapon

All of it is a bit absurd but I appreciate the boost to unidentified gear during this experiment.

1 Like
#3

The time investment coupled with the silver requirement to identify rng gear as well as there being a lot of useless stat line makes the whole thing frustrating, tedious and not worth it.

I’m better off saving up silver for raid gear and know what I’m getting stat-wise. This has been my modus operandi, since rng gear was introduced and after spending a few millions on identifying and not getting satisfying results.

There needs to be a system in place where you get guaranteed good lines upon identifying equipment or weapons that are also relevant to your class. Maybe even improving the stats you get the longer you farm rng equipment in one map. Make away with useless stats and add +skill levels for (base?) classes that effect the whole class tree or add an easy way to customize it for the class of your choosing only, +aoe attack ratio, +movement speed and so forth. There also needs to be an easy way to transfer stat lines to other equipment.

As of right now this whole rng gear mechanic is still very restrictive, unfun, expensive and not supportive of the vision of improving the uniqueness of each class.

2 Likes
#4

I think that unidentified items was a big mistake in the first place. It is better to know what is on stuff and where you can get it. Maps/areas could have bigger loot tables than in the past with more specialized armor and weapons.

#5

So you just gonna overlook all the non rng thing? So many improvement in other area and you just pick some part and generalized the rest.

#6

@redwea

The goal here was to point out that the new additional line color for armor/weapon brings more issues than do any good, since my posts end up as text walls i tried to simplify and cut some aspects of it be shorter to read. Also what kind of non-RNG aspects from it did i missed that you think are relevant (or that need further exploration) to add up? Right now i can only think about ‘rarity x cap value’, ‘new equipment not being available in HG’, ‘reroll price’, ‘why red/blue stats are bad’ (which i can link to another thread instead) and ‘new TP appraisal items that justify the system to exist in the current state’.

I’m down for P/MDef on weapons (Pierene Sword 2.0) and P/MAtk on gear, also the fact that looting chance was denied from weapons and shields was dumb, but with this stat selection list… nope.

If they added a reroll option (even if slightly more expensive powder wise) that changes only one line at time we wouldn’t have that issue, not that it changes the fact that more than half stats are useless or unwanted. AAR and movement speed can me too strong on that system considering you can have 4 different equipment pieces, capping it at 1 doesn’t make it exciting either.

@jevb3000

They either did it because players complained about their fixed stat equipment and/or weren’t using them and/or to make the ichor system happen, in about a week they already changed the upcoming raid equipment stats and effects so…