Tree of Savior Forum

Economy - The most important thing

i understand some may prefer less digit.
but money with less digit does not help reduce the inflation.
example,
farming 1 hour get $10, and monster’s drop sword valued $10, if the inflation is high, the value of that sword would be like $100 the next month. increased 10 times.
VS
farming 1 hour, get $1000, and monster’s drop sword valued $1000, if the inflation is very low, that sword value maybe $2000 next month. increased 2 times.

for a healthy economy, we need great money sink in the game. so the inflation is not sky high.
I’m not against the idea of having less digit, i could go either way many digits, or less digits, im just worried about the inflation.

You missed the point of his example entirely it was a hypothetical example with the same time to make a different value but the items were costed accordingly. In other words RNG has no relation his example.

if you want you could view it as

Kill 10 mobs = 10 coins Buy a sword for 10
kill 10 mobs = 1000 coins Buy a sword for 1000

The time/mob is just representing that earning rates are to stay the same in the model he wants. He just wants lower values so money has a more valuable feel per coin.

Truths are:

  1. Your topic title is kind of misleading. Economy is basically a circle of production and consumption and the stuffs in between.
    The digit number of the currency almost has nothing to do with the economy process (production and consumption process) between the players. Your topic is initially about the players’ psychology concerning the currency digit and the rewarding feeling. BUT…
  2. The digit can actually have an indirect effect to the economy, depending on the players interaction and mentality. Why? Because with smaller number, comes smaller gap. With smaller gap, the lesser farm will worth more. Therefore players shant feel the need to hunt high levelled mobs to increase their wealth, they just have to stay online as long as possible to kill lesser mobs. Thus this shall encourage players to…bot. ESPECIALLY, if you compare it to RO early days.
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Well… I didn’t say anything about that “more/less digit” stuff, because I think that increasing or decreasing the digit won’t change drastically things. The “selling price to NPC” is given by IMC’s algorythm/excel spreadsheet, that’s the only unchanging fact. The only changes will come from what we’ll do with this info.

The inflation risks come from us, the filthy & greedy players :stuck_out_tongue:
Everyone will want to earn MONEEEEEEEY, and observing the supply/demand on the auction market is the best way to do so. The rise of prices will become the new standard and… Well you know how works that famous vicious circle.

Effective money sinks. The attributes and companions stuff are a good start.
But features like that only gave us a (very big) delay on the long term.
Housing is a feature like that, but can be even more effective with taxes…

Taxes can be a solution, I guess.

Hate to be blunt, but taxing is a dumb solution that won’t work.

Taxing everything is dumb. But I think that taxing some specific things (depending on all the features available) can sink efficiently some money. An item renting system too.

According to you, why taxing wouldn’t work?

taxing…why taxing ?
tax in real life is for the government to invest in the need of people.
Now, what does tax “in game” do ? Bother players and does nothing. What a stupid idea.

Tax in real life bothers people too, and it’s supposed to “invest in the need of people” like you said, for its own good.
Maybe I’m wrong, but a well-thought game money sink is good for a healthy economy, means that is “good for players”.

Taxing is a money sink that negatively impacts players. If the negative impact is big enough people will go the tax methods to avoid it. For example a 25% tax on using Auction house will result in people just spamming chat and trading that way. Taxing players on buying items will dissuade users from using other services as well. Setting a low tax rate like 3% doesn’t provide anything and in all honestly negligible.

If you truly want a gold sink mechanic, you are going to want something that makes you look distinguished like a costume or a mount. Basically something cosmetic.

An item renting system is a bad idea.

I wasn’t thinking about taxing the AH. It won’t be a good idea after all, there’s already a small fee.

Cosmetic items is a money sink, but it would be “real $$$” sink, thanks to the cash shop (isn’t it?).

There are different ways to approach it. You can have 2 ways to buy a certain item. Real money or gold. Then you can also make some items exclusive to each other payments.

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If we are talking about money sink (which is rather out of the intended topic), there is in fact a very simple solution: consumables and consumable materials. Think about your real life, what makes your money hush hush? Food, medicine, maintenance cost, and everything else that is cannot be reused or recycled and that we need everyday. Everything that turns into poo and never comes back.

That last answer of yours wasn’t so terrible, except for the last part… Playing dumb again, saying that is impossible to keep digits small and without breaking the “balance”. but let me give you an practical example:

USA - CANADA - NETHERLANDS - GERMANY - FRANCE - and most of the countries
They all manage to keep the digits low and have a great balance.

AND THE BEST OF THEM ALL

ENGLAND - THE MOST VALUABLE CURRENCY, always creating scnenarios with less digits.

Exemple: if in netherlands a product costs 110 units, in england that same product costs 80 units.

Now, would you dare telling me that it’s just a coincidence that england always shows the smallest digits and at the same time it always manages to be valuable looking than all others?

I don’t consider bitcoins a currency although it is, but to people who consider, BitCoins are the most valuable currency ON EARTH, and guess what! 1 bitcoin = 27367 Yens.

I don’t how your twisted mind is but… Mine? If i get 100 yens i would feel like:

-Meh…

If i get 1 BitCoin i would feel like:

-:scream: YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYY!!! WOOOOOOOOOOW!!!

Good news: i agree with you. How do you feel about that?

But hey, I knew that all along… Ragnarok’s magic experience, wasn’t based on the economy >>>BUT<<< The economy and the value of the all mighty ZENY, represented a huge deal of that magic.

Imagine a barbecue:

Why do you want to go to a barbecue? To eat meat right? Right.

  • Even though the meat is the main reason why you go to a barbecue, it
    would never be that good if it wasn’t for the coals. YES! That’s
    right, the coals: Those black rocks that people sometimes forget
    about… You can still eat the meat without using the coals but…
    the barbecue will never be as magical.

I don’t think anyone played ragnarok for the value of the Zeny, but i am sure that the value of the Zeny played with our feelings… Back then, when ragnarok was just release, Zeny was ultra valuable. The time when ragnarok was magical, 1.000 zeny was very valuable. i remember when after 2 months and a half of pure hard work, i got my first 1.000.000 zeny. dude, it was insane.

But ragnarok 2? i got 1.000.000 in the first week, and i felt like: -Meh… :unamused:
I don’t want to see ToS having the same fate RO2 had, so that’s why i am here.

Sure, i can do it in 6 hours maximum, all i need is the list of the current prices and rewards of ToS in order to get started converting it and compiling.

i couldn’t find it, maybe because ToS is new or something, but could you send me the link where i can find all the information needed to start working on that? I will be more than happy to do it.

6 hours. :wink:

Well, first off, this statement is equal to an affront in a place like this:

[quote=“zeno_t, post:1, topic:39742, full:true”]
Since most of MMO players are playing the game because they have boring lives.[/quote]

Next, I don’t necessarily agree with the amount of money having to be small in order to keep the economy healthy nor to make the money feel valuable for the players.

Let’s talk about the appeal of numbers for a bit.
Players actually want to see high numbers once they’ve reached a certain point in a game. Especially when we talk about damage numbers, it adds to the feeling of satisfaction when people see their attacks deal a lot of damage. Other factors like the sound-effects etc. add to this feeling as well, but the numbers have their part in it as well, which is often overlooked.
The numbers of the different currencies are much less important for this kind of satisfactory feeling because the value of the virtual goods in a game always depend on the counterweights and the possible flow of the goods.
It does not matter much for the player whether he holds 100k, 1m or 10m of a currency for him to feel wealthy, as the prices of the wares that he needs in the game and the dependancy on those wares can easily outweigh the amount of money they have. It also does not matter because the money may be flowing elsewhere, for example money not mainly being used for exchange between players (money stays in the market) but being consumed through purchases from NPC’s (money leaves the market).

It does make for an optical difference whether you look at 100k or 100m but it has nothing to do with the feeling of satisfaction that comes from being wealthy. It may, however give off a vibe that your money is worthless because of the sheer amount indicating inflation. What happens in your mind when you have that feeling is not the origin of you being more symphathetical towards lower numbers but the almost automatic fear of inflation that comes with these high numbers.

But that’s just optics and feelings and how the players are emotionally affected by these numbers. Which is very important, mind you, because a game’s success heavily relies on stimulating the players emotions. But it has nothing to do with the in-game economy of the game.


A lot of online games I have seen so far, especially indie games, give out ways to obtain money through grinding activities (as loot from killing mobs or other repetitive actions) but miss out on giving any form of counterweight to these easily obtainable amounts of money in form of items for example.
In that scenario players will hoard huge sums of money and not have anything to spend it on. Anything that is purchasable within the game will become worthless similar to the money in a short period of time.
We will call this: Bad Situation A.

Next step, they add counterweights. It is important that the in-game currency is either consumed or flows into another market in some way in order for the currency to keep value and make the players continue to seek more of it. Many games do so by adding NPC shops with all sorts of different items. What a lot of games fail to do is add the right kinds of items into these shops. You can then buy a lot of one-time purchases like weapons, cosmetic clothes, armor, consumables that you only need once or a few times etc. The players will reach the sum of all these one-time, must-have purchases (only counting the items that the player absolutely needs) at some point and once this point is reached, the players will either

a) start to spend their money on items that are not one-time purchases (if there are any)
b) start to hoard money again if they don’t deem the items left for purchase necessary, leading us back to Bad Situation A.
When you substract the inevitable costs of these one-time purchases from the currency that you will gain inevitably(i.e. from story quests) then we call this Money Point A.

So now you add a lot of interesting items or services that consume money and are helpful to the player. For example, you could add transportation services that consume money, RNG-based equip upgrades that consume money (or any other RNG/Casino/Gambling-system that are banned in countries like China or the Netherlands), potions etc. etc. etc.
This will inevitably lead to the in-game currency being consumed and taken out of the market, which then has to be farmed again in order to get back into the market.
The only reason you are able to sell a very rare item for 10 million of the in-game currency, 10 times as rare as an item worth 1 million, is because the market has at the very least more than a sum of 10 million in it. If these 10 million do not exist within the market, then they can also not be spent. Despite your items immense rarity, you would not be able to sell it for a fair amount if nobody has 10 million at hand. And that is not even considering whether the person with the 10 million even needs your item.
When money becomes a scarce resource or when huge price leaps between items happen and it becomes hard to make up prices for items because of this, then we have arrived at: Bad Situation B.

So the trick seems rather simple at first, you sum up Money Point A (the money which the player inevitably will have to spend), substract from it the money that the player will inevitably earn (story quests, milestones etc.) and balance these 2 numbers out for roughly equal proportions (plus/minus some currency that the players can/want to spend on things other than must-have purchases from Money Point A). And then you calculate in the currency gains from repeatable actions (grinding/farming, repeatable quests etc.) and substract from it all the currency costs for anything that consumes the money (not including money that flows into another market, or stays in the market via player-player trade), let’s call this Money Point B.
There are many ways in which you can balance out these numbers of static gains/costs(Money Point A) and the dynamic gains/costs(Money Point B) and you could even further intertwine the gains and costs from these with other systems you implement (like auction houses for example) to balance the numbers out. This balanced market situation, we will call Balanced Market A.

That’s that. But now let’s say our players are able to trade all items and our in-game currency between each other. It’ll create a market where our currency will flow between the players instead of being consumed (or be only partly consumed through a fee). This has immense consequences for our Balanced Market A. Players will no longer sell items to NPCs that they used to sell to them before (like an upgraded equip part or a rare item that they don’t need) and instead sell them for more money to other players now. This money is then no longer substracted from Money Point A nor B because it no longer gets consumed. The prices for the items are set by the players and hence the amounts of consumed money from fees and the money distribution between players become highly abstract. You can no longer say how much money a single player may have at a given point in the game because he might have made better or worse financial decisions during the transactions. But the biggest problem being that a lot of the items which count to Money Point A will now switch hands between the players for much cheaper prices. Suddenly your calculations from Balanced Market A are wrong, the currency does not flow in abudance into the market but the amount of money that leaves the market is drastically less than before and players now have to make decisions of whether to spend their money on player-traded items or NPC sold items, leading us back to money inflation and again back to Bad Situation A.

Now you may say that this problem becomes easily solvable by figuring out your demand and supply of the items that can be sold via player-trade beforehand already. And to an extend, it can and is advised to be done.
But this isn’t all. There are many more things you can take into account if you want to know about making a healthy game economy. For example, what happens if someone (like the devs) makes adjustments to an established market in a given situation? Or what happens when there is not 1, but 2, 3 or even more different currencies?
The creation of different currencies creates a money flow between different markets. Let’s take, for example, a free to play game with a cash shop. If the cash shop does not use insane amounts of in-game currency (which is advised) and instead uses a different currency, let’s call it cash currency, then we always have at least 2 different currencies in a F2P game.

So, cash currency. Quite a big factor in F2P games that can break your in-game economy with just the tiniest of loophole present.
If you separate the currencies from each other so that you can not exchange one for the other then it does not affect your in-game economy much. In most cases, the different currencies are not entirely separated from each other, however. If you sell in-game currency for cash currency then inflation and with it Bad Situation A will be the obvious result.
If you sell items that can be sold to other players or to NPCs for huge amounts of in-game currency (mainly when the items are only obtainable via cash shop), then the game balance will suffer from it through disproportionate distribution of currency between the players and bigger inflation, as players will have more reason to trade with players for these items rather than to spend their currency on things that will consume the money, leading to more money staying in the market (mostly in the hands of the cashers).
If you sell items for cash currency that can be found in the in-game world, then there will be an inflation of valuable items, leading to lower prices on the player market and either less player-trade or more player-trade (depending on the demand of those items).
This gets only more complex the more different currencies you add as long as these currencies grant you anything that may be traded between players or may be exchanged for one of the other currencies.

The situation of the desired Balanced Market B, which is the optimal market situation for your game, only comes within reach if you manage to keep all of these basic factors (and more) in mind, and hence prevent your game’s economy from ruining the game experience for all players.

And it’s a hard goal to reach, because you do not just want a balanced in-game market, you also want a profitable cash shop and at the same time keep the players both satisfied and wanting for more.
All of these 3 elements are strongly affected by the in-game economy. And these elements may conflict with each other so that you will have to sacrifice one for the other.
As a general rule, you want a game that’s fun for the players and profitable.
And that’s why many games suffer from a bad economy, because for devs it’s easier to neglect it in favor of the other 2 elements. What a lot of devs don’t seem to realize, however, is that a stable in-game economy rarely comes in conflict with a fun player experience. And you can easily implement cash items that take some of the player experience and trade it in for more profit. That way everyone wins. Your in-game economy isn’t lacking, you keep building up a bigger and bigger player community and in turn you are able to implement more and more features that net you more and more profit while taking little to none of the player experience from the players.

TL;DR/To conclude:
So, 10 coins within 1 hour or 10.000 coins within 1 hour?
It’s a discussion that - by itself - has little to do with economics.
Once we see IMC handing out silver in huge amounts after the OBT, like they did in the Indonesian events, we will be able to see how that affects anything.
I agree with you that large sums are dangerous to play with because it’s harder to re-balance an in-game economy that is based on currency with so many digits. That’s because it’s much harder to take out money that’s already inside of the economy than it is to add more (except if you plan on wiping your games countless times). A working in-game economy does not guarantee fun, but it’s better to have than not to.
See Devan Pearce

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Do you have a TL;DR version? :stuck_out_tongue:

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100yen actually worth more than 1 Canadian dollar. yen had no cent, 1 dollar basically is 100cent.
big number does not mean high inflation. no japan dont have bad economy with high inflation.
you know your country had bad inflation rate when your salary is $1000, then your coffee cost like $1 last year, and this year your same coffee cost $1.5, 50% increase, while your salary $1050. 5% incraese.
then investor sell their bond, investor from outside dont want your country money, your country money value drop, last year you bought imported stuff for $100, this year you bought same stuff for $150.
the GDP drop, the HDI drop, people not enough money to spend money, the exchange rate from 1:1, become 1.5:1, till at some point, economy collapse, your country become like Zimbabwe. (your country can be any country, just example)
you wont see Zimbabwean tourist in other country, because they can’t afford it. but you still can see Japanese tourist.
well lets not speak about real world, since economy in real world much more complicated.

back to topic, good economy in game, or more precisely in ToS.
ideas to keep the inflation low, basically we need more money sinking.
less digit, not really help, but wont hurt. so im not against it.

tax actually a good idea, but people will rage, then will find a way to avoid tax, like keep all the money on unused character. unless they get something in return for the tax… maybe?.

i suggest a lottery, same like in many private RO. lottery price came from player, more player play, more price. example, 1000 per entry, 1000 player bought lottery, 1m money collected, the winner get 800k, thats mean 20% of money is removed. yes the winner instant rich, but the 999 other player lost. then they play again and again and again, 20% of money removed every single time. to make the lottery more fun, like there are weekly LIVE number draw. to promote player attend the live lottery draw, 5% of “service fee” is waived if winner claim the price at lottery center during the live number draw event. or else, player can claim the price later, 5% of fee is added and get 760k only instead of 800k from 1m money collected.

also no stats costume rental, the costume rent price is not too cheap till people can change costume every hour, nor too high till no one ever want to rent it.

i saw video that player can pray to goddess to get buff, why not make it pray and donate to get buff.

I do. It’s the small paragraph at the end. Highlighted it now.

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There are more factors then you list like a lot of people don’t live in japan so they would have to exchange the yen so there are those costs as swell which adjusts the comparison. And i dont think they specified what dollar it was but Canadian is the lowest we could use for the example.

During the beta i noticed most of the common misc items that dropped were worth 1-5 silver to sell, and the cheapest items you can buy in the game are around 8-10 silver, so there really is no point to this topic at all since the OP already has what he wants.

Um playing the beta you should have noticed that those items are not meant for income when the monster drop several hundred -3000 silver at low lvls.