They didn’t change it, but i bet it will be worse (for the attacker) since shields base defense was buffed.
I was thinking that too
You truly want to be credible by insulting someone at first (be polite and less agressive, it will not kill you), then, compare the power of a R6 skill, to a R8 skill ? Also, that’s only 619% x2 atm on KR server, not 750x2.
Dethrone is your R8 skill and deal less damage than Dragoon C1 skills. Why someone will take Dethrone if they can take Lancer instead ?
Now, you will explain without any troll, why swordsman 3 damage is better than every Cataphract skills if you think that they have “so strong cc” and why the impaler, the only true interessting CC here is also the only skill with good ratio. Also, you will explain us why Rush, a R6 high CD spell deal less damage per hit level 5 than a single auto-hit …
The Cryo can have a 1200% big AoE spell with 3 overheat, so i don’t think that they care all about some knockback. If the truly want to balance CC, why did they don’t kill restain ? To be honest, that’s a stupid skill, just here because swordsman lack too much things in PvP.
And if you want to talk about weapon damage and % damage : look at the cannoneer …
If you want to see a very strong CC with very high damage, look Corsair hook … Corsair C1 and you understand why Dragoon C2 sucks.
Of course, that’s the first changes. I hope that it will be rebalanced well later. The strongest skills should be the most unique / signature spells. The feeling is one of the most important thing in that sort of game.
If you have 5 spells with similar damage for exemple, the feeling will not be so cool. But if your spell with the best visual / sensation to use / high rank is more powerfull, it encourage you to XP that 330 levels …
So are you saying only % matter and skill base atk value is nothing?
Cause I still see Dethrone way stronger than Serpentine if you count the base skill damage. Please advise.
edit - nvm, there’s no skill base atk 
For Hop Goons it all matters on how much CRIT Rate we can get, and how the formula works in actual gameplay. If we can achieve a decently high CRIT Rate then going High DEX, Mid/Low CON, 1H+Shield, Leather, may be one of the best options. Finestra’s CRIT Rate is huge, and the Block bonus will help make up for the loss of Evasion, Leather for CRIT Rate, Accuracy, and maybe a little Evasion. We can have a high damage, high survivability build that we did before. 2H will do more damage still of course, but it’ll really miss out on the general high survivability that we have the potential for.
The alternative would be doubling down on our low Evasion, just going Plate with STR/CON, Finestra would turn into a little bit of extra damage/Block from the occasional Crit, which seems like a bit of a waste. I think we’d be worse off than before if this turns out to be the more viable option.
Right now though, so much can change. This is all just early thoughts as there are months until it comes to ITOS. For the time being, we need to know what the new Crit Rate is like.
The dev got pawned by dragoon 2 over and over again even though he was using Wiz or Cleric meta pvp build. Thats why he thought Quintain and Dethrone should be of equal damage instead of thinking on cancerous cleric and wizard non-damage skills.
IMC said non-damage skills will be the next on chopping board (or so they said). If the soon to be nerfed non-damage skills were not hard as they would be with the damage skills. Then lost hope, tree of clerics indeed, the devs are really the plethora of garbage balancing. I expect Ausrine, R7F, MH, safetywalls, heal, revive, stone skin, raise, magnetic force, haste, stop, Subzero shield, Beak Mask, Bloodletting, Gohei, Cloaking etc should suffer huge nerf like they did with Dethrone.
Just for fairness sake. Specially if you think Dethrone deserved to be nerfed like that.
2 Likes
Just one thing I kinda want to add: IMO one thing unbalanced from Dethrone was high damage + Lv.3 hard CC (PvP) in a single skill.
dethrone is ranged and have root debuff and 2 hit
blessing is like 2k+ dmg now
dragoon skills are multihit
more chance to restrain, more concentrate
still gud
lancers skill are single hit, and you need to go closer also, they deserve the damage
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It is if youre not cleric or non con build, the nerf would be fair as long as non-damage skills should follow too, with the same heavy nerf.
In my server in tels, Clerics and Top wiz can eat trans 10 dethrone with no problem. Dealing only half of Cleric,Wiz HP. Cannon Blast/Broadhead/Koochaksal + cloaking are more reliable than Dethrone IMO, with RF7 and Ausrine all over the place. My guildmate broadhead is killing top players with greater accuracy than my other guildmate’s Dethrone with trans 9 Regard pike.
Blind/immobility only last 3 or 5 secs? Pretty sure Dragoons dont mind removing the added CC in exchange of preserving high skill damage. You dont even see Dragoon 2 dominating TBL. You probably see 1 or 2 but not as frequent as with Clerics and Wizards meta pvp in highest ranking.
If i could wish IMC should do with dethrone, preserve the niche or the signature of the class, let dethrone be the highest percent multiplier of all the skills because that was IMC advertised with the players. Rebalancing is good, nerfing the skill from top damager to poop tier is selective justice.
@mleo1 it is only good on paper but not on practical manner. Specially non-damage skills overshadow or could melt the damage. Pretty sure as dragoon 2 user like yourself, Dethrone is not guaranteed top rank in TBL.
Anyway, Quintain is just a bonus for Lancer. Lancer niche is not on Quintain, but from utilities. Dragoon niche is high skill damage. Basically Dragoon 2 would be out of job if you remove the signature.
One of ways to preserve the skill is to make Dethrone with 3 overheats + remove serpentine debuff and apply the debuff on Dethrone instead. 1 hit of Dethrone would apply 50% additional damage from physical debuff.
2 Likes
God, don’t forget that Dethrone will go up to skilllevel 10 when Dragoon C3 comes out…
Comparing a skill that is at 50-70% of its true power to some fully-leveled skills and saying that it’s bad feels ridiculous if you take that into consideration.
Of course skills with lower Rank numbers have lower base modifiers, and of course skills that are only at level 5 of possible level 10-15 will have a lot less base damage - that’s because they got overhauled to scale with % now so that the damage increase is now way better once you invest in your skills.
Also, don’t forget that, even if the damage of Dethrone is “reduced”, the damage of all 90%+ of your other skills is increased!!! All those Swordsman skills now hit for a lot of damage e.g. compared to what they did before, have low CD times (or none like Thrust), so your overall damage can only increase… Just stop relying on only 1 skill to deal damage, since Swordsman has so many of those damage skills and now so many possibilities opened up.
You are not “Dragoon” only like in Final Fantasy e.g. but Swordsman + X + X (+ possible X,X,X)+ Dragoon xD
So does quintain lvl 5 would be lvl 15 in the future.
Ok, care to educate me on PVP now for dragoons, seems you know a lot regarding swordsman PVP build. Because youre ok with these and seems like you know how to build current swordsman, there is no doubt if you built Dragoon 2 will be top tier.
What are these skills you speak of than can be use on PVP. Instead of people like me relying only on 1 skill (shake my head).
I’d like to point that due to the new defense formula you won’t be able to hit 1 and a very high defense enemy vs a moderate defense enemy might just take a few number less from your damage. My point? everything is changing including defense.
As for what skill you’d be able to use, dunno, the landscape might enable you to use other stuff aswell.
No more. Serpentine, dragon soar etc are all melees, goodluck hitting people with gae bulg. Might as well use Lancer quintain for that very reason “might enable you to use other stuff aswell.” So whats left with dragoons?
I’d also like to remind you that this is just the beginning, you might see further nerf across the board, buff, everything in between.
Do not take anything as final until it is.
First: This wasn’t about Quintain vs Dethrone only.
Guess what? Kabbalist is still stuck with only level 5 Merkabah with a really low damage modifier (335% per chariot explosion; if you use Divine Might and add everything together you get 350%*6= 2100%+ possible 600% if every chariot manages to touch the enemy, for a total of maximum 2700%) and a really high CD time, i.e. 45 seconds, without any overcharges.
Compare that to any of the Rank 7/8 skills and you’ll see how retardedly bad the skill is in contrast to all the others, as a damage skill [and to date still the only one the Class offers in 2 Circles].
Compared to that the issue of Quintain vs. Dethrone is minor. Dethrone will ± offer 3156% within 16 seconds at level 10, that’s about 3,5 times the damage Merkabah can deal [if we consider the damage/CD time-ratio], which is enhanceable via Serpentine debuff.
If we compare level 10 Dethrone (3156%) with level 15 Quintain (3728%), there is just a small difference, but within the DPS section Dethrone will still best Quintain: 31561,5/16 vs. 37281,5/21 = 295,875% vs. 266,29% Damage per second CD time.
And btw, this thread wasn’t about PVP (as it’s not in the PVP section), it was about how viable Dragoon is after the changes. If you derail it to only focus on PVP with such comments of mockery, there’s no way to give answers to the OP (who didn’t explicitely ask for PVP balance/viability).
If you care about PVP, you should’ve noticed by long that PVP wasn’t really the place for Dragoon to shine, but rather for Lancer (unmounting, removing magic circles,debuffing,silencing) and Dragoon was just viable because of Dethrones abnormally high base damage that was enough to oneshot a lot of characters that couldn’t reduce more than ~4-6k damage via defence.
With the new way of how defence and skill damage is calculated, any build that has Swordman C3 for Restrain (stun),Bash (knockdown) and Pain Barrier should be at least viable to face off against other players. Onehit kills have become a thing of the past, as it’s now a war of atrition until one goes down for having not enough HP left to live. On the bright side, you probably won’t get onehitted by Revenged Sevenfold and Malleus Maleficarum anymore, so rejoice 
Nah, until CC and Ausrine get nerfed pvp still cc x ausrine.
The way things are going right now with kTest, it seems Cryo3KinoX builds will be great in PVP again since IMC didn’t seem to bother touching them while “balancing” damage skills.
Free pseudo-R7F with 100% uptime and no hit limit with passive high-proc hard CC. SPR no longer increasing status resistance, with god knows where they’re moving that substat.
Freaking wall of ice which can cause permafreeze if comboed well with Kino skill.
Of course, the classic Pillar-X-SomeOtherSkill stuck bug with a chance of crash. I know some players who are still having issues with it. Hopefully the rework ends that. 
TLDR we’re back at R7 days boys! At least Archers aren’t alone with their situation now (Hunter Cannon builds are an exception though, and we don’t even have Appraiser yet).
Maybe I’ll reset to one for fun.
2 Likes
Well, for me Subzero is kind of the same as Revenge and Missile Hole, they aren’t offensive/damage dealing skills. They’re defense/countering skills. Missile Hole is free pseudo-ausrine with 100% uptime. (Cryo->Sages meta)
I’m hoping for them to be balanced afterwards.
Plus, could someone confirm if Frost Pillar bug still lags you on ktest?