Tree of Savior

@Developer, please read these thread about iToS people's opinion regarding healing tile at Re:Build


#81

I still can’t tell if you’re trolling or just really missing the point that often tbh.

Anyhow:

  • I’m not talking about self-sustain, but one’s ability to act as a healer for your group.
  • It still runs into the issue of having to dedicate 1-2s every 11s to heal, I know that isn’t much but for some builds that will be a major issue. (Like say if you long cast times on Sanctuary, Kagura, Energy blast or need to combo or lose skill use (monk’s knife hand))
  • The old heal was still quite decent for non-spr builds, but the new one places a far higher emphazis on having a lot of spr to ensure it works well.
  • Clerics were the primary source of dmg mitigation and that has been mostly removed and nerfed with only a few exceptions being left.
  • The new targeting system was screwing up both with self-targeting and targeting others to begin with.
  • I don’t mind the tile limitations aside of visibility, I think skills are most interesting when they have up and downsides.
  • Restoration, Healing Factor, Tree of Sephiroth and Indulgentia are by far stronger heals atm. There’s nothing supplementary about them.
  • Heal:Linger currently doesn’t work in ktest, and I’m not sure if it now fits its description (50% heal stat or 50% of amount healed like in itos) Neither of them is 750% though.
  • Directional targeting is also not quite the same as outright targeting, this still needs improvements before I’d consider it a proper reliable long range heal. (bar may be to high for IMC tbh.)
  • If targeted buffs were made for self casting wouldn’t they just be self buffs?

#82

I think you’re missing the point of Re:build.

Every skill is getting balanced.
This is why we get targeted Heal on Cleric (so it can retain a low CD time and OH) and AoE Heal on other Classes.
Skills with larger AoE and multiple targets have higher CD times and thus are unfitting for Cleric.

A good parallel from the same team is the concept of Acolyte in RO, who has a targeted Heal.

The time issue is not really an issue if you want to survive. If you don’t Heal beforehand, chances are high that you have to heal inbetween, breaking combos,etc.

I’ve been through this already in endgame content where I had to cancel Rubric to survive with Heal.
If I had a HoT-effect maybe I could’ve pulled through, who knows?

And if you don’t need the extra Heal then you simply don’t cast it. It’s just an option given by the designers.
Talking about the Linger attribute, it seems to be broken like a lot of skill effects and attribute effects, which happens whenever IMC patches large updates.
I’m not really worried about it not working, I’d be more worried if it silently disappeared.

The damage mitigation was already divided between the 5 base Classes, providing every base Class with their own ways of mitigating it + at least one more defensive Class (Quarrel Shooter, Paladin, Peltasta, Outlaw,Cryomancer) to improve survival.

I believe the new system is very fair, it reduces the burden of Cleric and divides it equally between the Class trees to invest in equipment and skills that improve their survival.

The supplementary nature of heal skills comes from the observation that most AoE recovery skills have a larger downtime of 15 - 30 seconds.
They supplement the recovery that surpasses the damage recovered via potions.

If you don’t think it’s supplementary,
then you either ignore the fact that people have to pot unless they carry a full heal build,
or you think that it’s not supplementary because people can live by receiving the Heal once every x seconds.

Heal in this game is no longer providing the large recovery rates it did before Re:build, but you also receive a lot less damage and have halved potion CD times.
At least for me this is a clear sign they go away from the necessary Heal to an optional Heal every now and then to supplement for damage that exceeds the potion recovery, to ensure survival.

Healing Factor and Restoration have a special role since Healing Factor is single target only and Restoration can be scrolled and thus used by everyone.

Last but not least, if we go back to the targeting mode:
Of course they are not created solely for self-targeting/self-buffing, but it plays a huge role in the way they are utilized.
You can see that in the way you hit yourself (i.e. the standard configuration without directional input),
which is completely stress-less in comparison to targeting someone else.

This means that the basic use of the skill is to buff/heal yourself with it (makes sense because you’re the only player available outside a party with at least two members) and the use can be altered,
depending on the user, if he no longer wishes for self-support.

This also gives a player the option to use a skill on others if required, but that’s optional.
The fact it’s optional is reflected in the targeting system that targets you, the Cleric, by default.

I understand that you want to talk about the recovery capabilities that affect other players and how the new healing mechanics affect party play,
but you must understand that a lot of changes hint at less support from the Cleric and more self-sustainability on other Classes (which is congruent with the recent max HP change that increased the maximum HP of all non-Swordsmen to improve their survival even more) via mitigation and potion recovery.

That’s the point I’m trying to get through to the people who still think they need to throw Heal at everyone after the update even though the Non-Clerics take on average less damage than the Clerics and now have similar or even higher amounts of max HP by default (because Cleric has spread-out stats, it has less CON on average than Archer & Scout and sometimes even Wizard builds, which might result in Clerics running around with the least amount of HP in a lot of cases).

Heal will be mostly to completely self-sustain of the Cleric. That’s why Heal tiles would be disadvantageous (other could probably steal them) and take too long to cast for the faster pace of the game where you need to evade and move more.

Imo the changes are very beneficial for Clerics so they can survive while not weakening the role of Priest/Pardoner as party recover option if required.


#83

totally agreed… in rebuild next healer will be classified as priest, kabbalist or pardoner and no more we see base cleric class overshadow all this classes in term of healing capability.

basically u want cleric to be champion of both as healer and dps?

In my opinion healer role supposed to look out and maintain party health.


#84

:eyes:
Yes, I know. It’s not like that opinion hasn’t been repeated ad nausea as if it’s the only opinion possible on the subject… /Sarcasm.

Not to mention that your question has already been answered, so why do you even ask?
To state the utterly frackingly obvious yet again:

  • No, a jack of all trades (or D&D cleric in this case) design is never meant to have the best dmg. Its supposed to have downsides for fulfilling several roles.
  • If you push for full healers that are irreplaceable you end up pushing all the other clerics to be replaceable.
  • I’d even say there should be an extra benefit to kabba/priest/pardoner aside of better healing, but would you even use it?

#85

I’m fine with removing tiles and making it target spell.
/ch154


#86

I don’t think there should be a class dedicated to healing at all. Look at GW2; every class has their own healing skill.

Healing is a niche, unnecessary and usually boring function. I get that some people like being healers, but there’s twice as many that don’t and would like to support using other methods like precise and tight party protection skills, like Oracle’s, that rewards good timing or just contributing with damage as well (but in a unique way, like Sadhu and Druid).


#87

Pushing “full healers” will bring back issues like wow’s healing tax (not that it ever disappear really) and later, will surely mess with potions.

A lot of flawed stuff going on here.
The balancing argument doesn’t hold anymore. Mass heal got a reduction of cd down to 15 sec, still AoE mind you.

The self sustain argument doesn’t hold (never held at all) either because of the fact that it was changed to target party members (yourself included). Just because it is a poorly designed targeting system doesn’t make it an argument for primarily “self use”. It’s quite funny how you can see that the targeting system itself is bad, but wish to keep it as is.

The argument of distributing the healing burden thru other avenues doesn’t hold anymore just from the change to mass heal.

The mechanical argument for self targeting doesn’t hold either because of the physical limitations the available control schemes provide. Because game pads only have 4 directions they automatically HAVE to go to other party members. That doesn’t mean heal should be viewed as a mostly self targeting tool.

The buff stealing argument is easily addressed via applying the buff directly to the caster on cast, where you basically buff yourself every time you (try to) buff someone else.

These are all basically non sequitur.

If IMC is really going to push for main healers, heal needs to have no cd, no oh but a clear penalty to the cleric for repeated use like:

  • an increasing heal cost
  • a stacking atk/matk decreasing debuff
  • a stacking SF reduction for heal

I still point the root of this design decision towards the control schemes. What’s really bad is all this development is gonna get highlighted (again) the moment we get enough people to go for guild content. This targeting system is gonna pave (bulldoze) the way for targeted buff taking over/replacing AoE buffs and is going to carry over the problems they have now.