Tree of Savior Forum

Crowd Control needs to be changed (Freezing, stunning, etc...)

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#1

Crowd Control is currently a mess in ToS.

In PvE, it’s virtually useless in boss fights for the most part, since bosses are not affected by CC.

In PvP, it’s massively overpowered, unless you build almost entirely into SPR, which in turn makes most classes massively gimped.

There are 4 solutions to these problems:

  1. Crowd control immunity. After using a crowd control, the boss/player gains immunity for X seconds.

  2. Diminishing returns. After using a crowd control, the next crowd control will be less effective (last less time), and consecutive crowd control will exponentially be less effective, till it’s reduced to having no effect at all.

  3. Make crowd control have a different effect on bosses, or simply give the boss a debuff based on the crowd control applied without actually applying it, so skill combo’s such as freeze + electrocute actually work. It doesn’t make sense to have such combo’s and be completely useless on bosses.

  4. Similar to GW2, give bosses a crowd control break bar. The bar will take X amount of crowd control skills to break, after breaking you can use 1 crowd control skill on the boss.

With these changes, you can use crowd control skills and combos against bosses without it being massively OP.

This will also prevent the current huge imbalance in PvP, with freezes and stuns almost guaranteeing wins. Currently psychic pressure can stun lock someone to death, and ice wall > psychic pressure can freeze the entire arena, and destroy teams with almost no counter.

I don’t mean to nerf Psychokino (as that class is completely broken, with skills that don’t even work), but these are necessary changes needed for both PvE, and PvP.

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#2

Seems to me that you’ve never played other MMOs, as the vast majority of bosses are really immune to a lot of stuff.

As for CC in PvP, it will certainly be overhauled.

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#3

Just make it that bosses are still CC inmune but still get the “debuff icon/quality” for skill Combo Purposes.
Or you could make it like FFXIII were each boss was weak to a specific Debuff and inmune to other, but meh.

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#4

I’ve played plenty of MMO’s, and many MMO’s tend to do the diminishing returns method, some don’t allow any CC at all, and the more asian MMO’s (such as X-Legend developed games) follow the first method.

Regardless of previous MMO’s, in this particular game, CC must work on bosses to some degree, or it completely ruins some combos classes have such as freeze + electrocute.

Will it? Who told you it will certainly happen? It hasn’t changed in 3 beta’s, and an extended Korean test, where everyone has complained about it. It was so obvious it was broken, when the top 10 players in PvP were all basically the same class combination that had infinite CC.

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#5

That’s also a method that I’ll add to the list.

#6

PvP in its entirety for this game is just a mess imo.

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#7

Somewhat, for the most part standardized gear fixed a lot of issues in the smaller arena fights (3v3,5v5), and the real big issue is CC.

I imagine that guild pvp will have even fewer issues just because you can have more players playing. I don’t expect a 100% balance in classes for pvp, but with so many people on each team, it’ll work itself out for the most part with minor tweaks.

#8

I really liked how GW2 is when it comes to CC on bosses. They have a ‘CC Shield’ that shields them for an X amount of times. So if they have a Level 10 CC shield for example, they can receive CC 10 times without suffering anything, but on the 11th time they will actually be CC’d, and then the shield will reset to 10.

It’s an interesting, different way to make CC count when fighting bosses.

But nonetheless I agree that CC in pvp needs a bit of a change. Sadly, it’s hard to point out how to change things precisely. CC is the only way to really make you win a fight against a 2H Sword user or some other faceroll class like that.

The worst part is, a few CC skills don’t even work in pvp though! My biggest Peeve as A Cryomancer is that Frost Pillar doesn’t affect enemies on pvp in any way.
I undertand that having it sucking on enemies and freezing them would be quite OP, but maybe having it at least slow enemies around it, or softly drag them towards the tree but still make people able to run away from it after a struggle.

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#9

Do we already have an actual PvP system working, with ladders and stuff? I was thinking there was only “duel” available.
Anyways, I’m sure it will certainly happen, because not only I’ve followed a lot of MMOs development, but I’ve also participated in a LOT of beta tests, and I can say this is a regular road on most games. They really need to get the game environment going before they can even start thinking about PvP mechanics and balancing.

As for the boss cc imunity complain, it makes you look like an MMO rookie, again, since it’s true and it’s known by most MMO players that you need specific party arranges to defeat specific bosses. It’s also very clear that every MMO game has classes or jobs with distinct functions… some are better at mobbing (yeah, i’m looking at your cryo element combo) and some are better at bossing.

#10

I completely forgot that was a thing, I really liked how that works in GW2 (and how you can abuse it in meta maps now :wink:), but overall its a great idea.

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#11

This is a silly complaint. No MMO that wants its boss fights to be taken seriously will ever let you crowd control them. It’s ok for skill combos that are effective in regular PvE to not be effective against bosses.

Elementalists in particular are already extremely strong boss killers so this is really a non issue.

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#12

We don’t. The KR version has had it for quite some time, with the ladder system. I’m guessing we don’t because of many server issues that come with it. They’ve reworked a lot, infact originally the design allowed for CC to work on bosses, but certain skills (dievdirbys silence), made this massively OP.

I do agree that CC should not 100% affect bosses, there should be some reduction, diminishing return, etc. But there should be some form of a CC.

Yes, elementalists are. But psychokinos arent all that great, neither are cryomancers, etc. There’s no point in saying one particular class is great at killing bosses, and completely ignore mechanics of other classes.

I made an extensive list of all the MMO’s I’ve played years ago, if you’d like to take a look for whatever reason.

Once again, this is true. But not for all MMO’s. There is already one such example in this thread. GW2 allows boss CCing, X-legend games as well, and plenty of other games. It’s not 100% CC, there’s some catch to it. But it is completely possible.

As for parties required to kill bosses/raids/etc. For the most part it’s just the trinity for MMORPG’s, very few don’t follow it.

This is one such game. So please, don’t compare this game to your previous experiences with different MMORPG’s, and actually take a read through these suggestions.

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#13

As I answered in reddit, there are some cc’s that work, it’s just that IMC don’t have a clear pattern here (or these below are bugs, who knows).

Again, I will give an example based on my main character: a hunter.

  • Growling applies fear, which locks the boss. He does not move, atack, or use skills. Does not work on pvp.
  • Retrieve “stuns” the target while retrieving him. It works on pvp but not on bosses.
  • Coursing, which is just a debuff, does not work on bosses.
  • Pointing, another debuff, works on bosses. But the attribute, which applies the same fear as Growling, does not work.

So… it’s unpredictable.

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#14

That sounds less like it’s supposed to work, and more like they overlooked things since they made some changes to hunter after the boss CC revamp a long while back.

Regardless, changes need to be done in PvP for sure, and for PvE as well, especially to make it less unpredictable and random.

I missed this part, and I agree. But with KR OBT happening next month, and an iOBT should be happening very soon after, now is the time to do these things.

#15

At first I thought AI skills worked while active ones didn’t. We can see Pointing, Hounding and Growling are all AI skills (like stances) that works on bosses.

However, I tested other options to discover that one active skill, Snatching, works too.

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#16

I don’t think that every class should be equally great at killing bosses, and you’re really nitpicking a minor detail in my post. The main point is that bosses should not be CC’d.

Sure maybe at some point in the future they can let the freeze debuff stick without actually freezing the boss, but it’s extremely low on the list of priorities that IMC should be working on IMO.

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#17

The whole point of a mob being called a Boss is the immense difference of power and resources between a regular mob and themselves. It makes no sense for Bosses being as easy as regular mobs are to kill, and I think bosses on Tree of Savior are already too much easy and predictable.

#18

I like the idea of bosses being affected by CC, just not to the full effect, but some less impactful version of it.

#19

I agree, some CC is rather long, or too powerful.

I think if they do implement some way of CCing in terms of PvE, it should be less impactful on a boss, but still available.

For the most part, it needs to change for PvP too.

#20

I don’t want my stun to work on bosses cause it would make it too easy, I already can stun lock an enemy to dead…

as for “crowd”, I find it funny that people don’t notice that even if you make a horde follow you… only 5 monsters are aggressive at a time and the rest will ignore you until you kill those 5…

people don’t notice cause when you hit more than 5, the rest alternate (between ignoring you and attacking/follow) depending if you are close to them or not.