Tree of Savior Forum

Cleric balancing issues: please be true to your "goals" and equalize classes

Just to remind you at the start what I’m talking about, here’s a quote from your developer blog post:

We at the dev team feel the need to reduce this ‘class disparity’.

We have implemented five class patches so far. These are the goals we have been aiming to achieve with them:

  1. Each class should have its own characteristics and roles.
    
  1. Adjustments should be carefully planned to avoid one class dominating its rank or being left out, and to achieve a fairly equal distribution of classes in each rank.
    
  1. Rather than letting one class become too good to the point of self-reliance, we should devise a plan to encourage different types of classes to work together and develop new play strategies.
    

Class disparity is basically created by you because classes inside Ranks are not equal to each other. By that I don’t mean that they should have equal skills or equal roles, but be equal in terms of CD time, AoE, Overheat charges.
Why is it e.g. that Paladin as a tank class [blue icon]
has an attack skill with low CD time[9 seconds] and 2 overheat charges while Sadhu has high CD times[20-30 seconds] and no overheat charges on his skills as a damage dealer class [red icon]?
Also, Paladin has 7 skills while Sadhu has only 6, and Sadhu C3 only features a support skill with high CD time [which also cripples the Sadhus damage by taking away his stat points] as a damage dealer while Paladin gets a support and a damage skill (again with overheat)?

How can Sadhu not be outclassed by Paladin in this setting?
Less skills, no overheats, higher CD time on the damaging skills, useless support skills with high CD times…

The same again with Rank 7 Kabbalist vs Plague Doctor.
Plague Doctor has overheat charges and lower CD times on most of his skills (or at least it’s possible to increase the lasting time to equalize ± the CD time of buffs within 6 skilllevels e.g. Blood Letting/Healing Factor)
while Kabbalist has high CD times and no overheat charges at all.
Also, the buff skills don’t last long enough(Ein Sof lvl 10 lasts only 50 seconds with 60 seconds CD time) or are removed after one hit (Revenged Sevenfold), which makes them pretty useless unless you have a Dievdirbys in your build to reduce the CD times.

However, this is against your point 3 as it forces builds with Kabbalists to also include Dievdirbys into their builds to become viable/useful.
Supporting should be the role of Kabbalist, but he isn’t able to do it properly because of the CD time restrictions, skill duration restrictions, attribute restrictions, and, most of all, because of the total absence of useful number-calculating skills.

How can Kabbalist have any worth if Reduce Level or Double Chance don’t work on boss monsters because you always calculate 0 on them[= Double Chance does nothing against boss monsters as it lasts for 0 hits]?
And why is it that Double Chance can be triggered by everyone in the party, not just the Kabbalist himself? Do you want to have the Kabbalist ask everyone to stop attacking to debuff the monsters first and then attack them if in a party/dungeon/mission?

Then there’s that issue with Kabbalists signature skill, Merkabah. The skill has many useful buffs etc once you hit Class Circle 2 via attributes, but
45 seconds CD time and no overheat vs. 20 seconds CD time and 2 overheat for Plague Doctors Incineration seems unbalanced.
You simply can’t enjoy the skill with this CD time and the issue with it only travelling a certain distance and then exploding. The new hits that are applied by the wheels itself are also scaling badly as they are applied too slow and only scale with matk. As the enemies are hit by rotating wooden planks, why isn’t this based on physical damage?

The skill needs a fix asap with lower CD time, physical damage and/or overheat charges for the sake of justice and balance.
The Kabbalist also needs more skills based on number magic, and useful skills while we’re at it, not only debuffs (all number skills are only debuffs applied on the monsters) which are useless because they apply only to few monsters/have high CD times/have too many restrictions [especially the short duration which is comparable with Plague Doctors debuff skills but with worse effects].

The same drama with Oracle vs Druid, as most Oracle skills have a CD time way too high to be useful and the damaging skills are nerfed/unusable vs boss monsters [Death Sentence, Twist of Fate].
Oracle is again a class that almost cries for Dievdirbys in its builds because the CD times of the useful skills are so high [Resetting 150 seconds, Counterspell 90 seconds, Death Sentence 600 seconds, Foretell 42 seconds] while the magic circles [Counterspell, Foretell] only last 1/3 of the CD time.

Oracle seems to have no real characteristics or roles at all because of the high restrictions and limited usefulness if compared to other classes which could be chosen instead. Nearly nothing makes it worthwile to Circle up Oracle as its skills aren’t becoming any better aside from Prophecy, and the new skills are not even close to be useful in the current situation [damage skills useless against boss monsters because of nerfs/restrictions, supportive skills require Dievdirbys/Miko to be effective]


So, to sum it up:

  • The base concern of balance issues are not the issues of damage, it’s the issues of class compareability.

  • CD times are not balanced and many classes require circles invested into Dievdirbys because of high CD times and the total lack of overheat charges in contrast to their Rank counterparts who are better in all aspects
    [more useful skills, lesser CD times, higher buff/debuff sustainability].

  • certain classes lack useful class attributes, which make them even more inferior compared to other classes

  • classes are either heavily reliant on other classes or self-sustainable; every class should have the ability to participate in the game, not just some with higher basedamage or higher sustainability [see endgame content: magic defence issue, HP issue(not enough damage dealt with certain skills), CD time issue (certain builds lack filler skills, i.e. skills with good damage and low CD time and take forever to finish content; Cleric skills like Heal and Cure shouldn’t be the main source of damage until you hit Rank 8)]

  • some class mechanics are not working/punishing and don’t benefit the user [e.g. Out of Body instantly killing the user if hit with 0 defence when facing high level monsters/bosses (considering we’re only at lvl 330 of 500+ levels targeted) unless stacking HP equipment and having Kabbalist C2/3 for Ein Sof, Clerics Fade removing all Boss damage contribution, Pardoners skills requiring high amounts of Silver to deal little to no damage if not overgeared, Taoist requiring several expensive talismans to use skills]

  • classes are not consistantly increasing in power/helpfulness with Rank and Class Circle [many lower Ranked classes like Dievdirbys are often better investment than going 2 or 3 Circles of a certain class like Pardoner, Oracle, Kabbalist, Sadhu or Monk]

Please try to take these aspects into consideration when balancing the Cleric classes, as from Rank 4 onwards there seems to be always one superior class and one utility class (“take one Circle or leave it be”).

3 Likes

A big problem with cleric skills are those where only 1 point of investment is required without any extra attributes. These skills should be adjusted such that the buff or debuff is dependent per level instead of just duration.

On a more generic scale, the higher you are per rank, there should be attributes that would allow superiority over the other. The best example should be prophecy. Amongst the best anti-status skills, for this to be beaten, a competing prophecy can outright dispel if the level is high enough. And by superiority, I don’t just mean damage or duration, but defensive or nullifying capabilities against an opponent.

Honestly i just want devs make archers the number one class to take to towers like earth tower.

Were you are required for each party to have archer.

How they do it. Should be enough of buff.

Or better yet. Give archers to do magical atk. And elemental or different type so we can get past high pdef and blocks . Dodges. Cause getting to 1.5k+ pdef not hard

Not saying I disagree with your points, but let me nitpick some things:

  1. Are you really picking on Smite? Smite is worse than auto attacking on non-demon/mutant mobs without Conviction, and only comes close to a mediocre skill when coupled with Inquisitor’s Wheel on Conviction’ed mobs.

  2. Ein Sof is barely used for the extra HP, it’s mostly used as an instant mana-regen tool wich is premium for parties and some solo-ish builds (palaquisitor, dievquisitor, etc).

  3. Are we really saying Revenged Sevenfold is bad? Really? The arguably best skill in PvP and the skill that makes any other unit-summoning class (bokor, diev, inquisitor with pears) able to solo any quest boss is now bad? It is situational, it’s not a skill you’ll be using to kill every single trash mob in the game.

Now that I got that out of the way, yes, if we consider PvE as the only part of the game there is a huge imbalance in the classes you mentioned. But try to analyze it on a PvP perspective: Is the Kabbalist kit worse than PD’s kit on a GvG? Is the Oracle kit worse than Druid’s kit on TBL?

I won’t delve into the Sadhu point because it’d be beating the “Sadhu is currently ■■■■” dead horse.

  1. I’m not picking on Smite, I’m picking on the fact of low CD time and overheat charges. If one class has skills that deal damage and have low CD times/overheat charges, why shouldn’t the other class also have any of these benefits/advantages? This is the point of creating unbalance and making one class worse than the other one.
    Smite was just an example to elucidate my point.

  2. Ein Sof is however able to maintain high HP levels when lvl 10+ combined with Dievdirbys Laima statue CD reduction. To achieve the same effect without Laima, you have to invest at least 13 points into the skill and need Divine Might (59+3 seconds duration vs 60 seconds CD time) while Bloodletting and Healing Factor of Plague Doctor only need 6 levels to have an equilibrium of buff duration and CD time without the help of Dievs Laima statue. That’s the point here.

  3. I’m not saying that Revenged Sevenfold is bad, but on a non-dodge build, you’ll get hit and lose the buff directly. Then you have to wait 40 seconds until you can again only avenge one hit. Imagine Bloodletting or Beak Mask only protecting you one time no matter the skilllevel, or Healing Factor only recovering your HP one time and then vanishing.
    You should get the idea, the skill is basically a one-time wonder but supportwise it’s pretty bad because it’s gone after getting hit once(magic e.g. can’t be evaded so it will instantly end your RSF).

Worst is that the reflected damage is dependent on your defence, so if you have enough defence to get hit for 1s, the skill doesn’t do anything aside from reflecting 7 damage once and consuming 59+ SP per cast.
That’s basically punishing you for having defence by rendering your skill totally useless, gg.

It would e.g. help if the skill would get a togglable attribute to change the “sevenfold” aspect of the skill to avenge 7 hits for 100% damage each instead of 1 hit with 700% damage. That way the buff wouldn’t be instantly canceled ingame on first hit and could protect you from more damage (if you don’t get hit for 1s already), it could even include a CD time increase of 20 seconds, just to make the skill better…

hahahaha nice joke friendo i hope r7, ausrine and missile hole get nerfed to the ground in pvp.

A 1-skill difference is okay, but the fact some classes will have 6 skills while others 9 is just dumb (even more if one is at high rank class while the other is low rank).
My problem is that Priest, a rank 2 class, has 9 skills. And to top it off, they all have their utility. Krivis is also rank 2 and yet has 6 skills.
And some other classes will seem to have skills just to fill up the number of skills.

R7 isn’t bad. Even in PvE. But R7 isn’t a skill that you should use alone because like you say: it’ll be used and disappear right away.
R7 is actually meant to be used with other protective skills. Like inside counterspell, and then you decide on which enemy attacks you’ll use it.
I’m a Kabba 2 (RIP), and I’ve never felt R7 was bad, even in PvE, because if I don’t want it to be used on any basic attacks, I’ll simply use it with some kind of shields.
Also, there’s no way you’ll have high defense to get hit by 1 at higher content (at least until you get some really OP gear and even then, not sure).
But Kabbalists are only good for R7 and ES.
R7 is cool for squishies anyway.
I’ll shamelessly admit that when there’s a really low level person with me in Siauliai, I won’t give them the shield or stone skin if my R7 is on because the damage is pretty crazy.

To me the balance issues are that they simply don’t allow some classes to do their jobs.
Kabbalist is “support”. Really ? Support what ? Not support DPS, not a buffer, not really a debuffer, not a CC-er, not a healer/cure support… So what is it ?
Sadhu is damages, really ? What damages ? The damages were already terrible, nerfed after CBT, and now they nerfed it even more ?
Why is Taoist green/support ? It’s like Wugushi… Support DPS ?
A lot of classes are like that, and on every trees, and the damages/support/defense/crafter icons don’t even make much sense. It feels like for some classes they really knew what they wanted and what they’re doing, but for others… Not so much.
So they’re stuck with those classes with a cool lore/origin, but they have no idea what to do. And thus Sadhu was born.

For the overheat/long cd issue: Smite’s having a low cd and overheat isn’t an issue by itself, the issue is that other classes won’t have even one attack with low cd/overheat.
OP took Smite as an example I believe, he/she wasn’t saying that Smite is OP, needs a nerf, or anything.
It’s just that the overheat/cd are weird on TOS, and don’t always make sense.
Some wizards’ skills have quite a long cd, no overheat, then you have buffs like Missile Hole that last for long, are incredibly good, yet the cd is short… ? @_@
Even Ausrine. With Laima and the fact you can run around Ausrine several times to get the buff, you can stay Ausrine-less for only a few seconds before being able to craft Ausrine again… Just pop your shield/fade and wait, you know.

Kabbalist is such a unique class wasted with “not so needed” skills, its a rank +7 class and it doesn’t feel so powerful as PD. I’ll go Kabba2 anyway just because I love the class. But I feel like they’re gonna buff some skills “soon”…

I’m Kabba R7 now, i think Revenged Sevenfold is pretty nice for pvp, it can instantly kill your target if he is not aware. Also classes that need to hide like archer’s have serious trouble with Sevenfold. On the other rand i’m also Monk C2 and i can tell that Energy Blast right now is so weak when considering it’s his only AOE skill: High CD and not great Damage, also Hand Knife, Palm Strike and God Finger Flick are the worse skills, no damage high CD.

I agree with u that the devs are bad at balancing and most classes are imbalanced. Sadhu is weak we know, kabbalist is not so strong. We know. But chill out with the comparisons mate. Paladin isnt even that much better than sadhu… Paladin isnt strong, but sadhu is just sh!ttier. Oracle is amazing in pvp too, their prophecy has full uptime btw with 10 blocks and most debuffs are rank1. Druid carnivory doesn’t touch flying mobs and requires chrostamata in most places. U wanna talk op talk about miko thats more appropriate.

Plague is in a pretty good spot but has its weaknesses. It seems as if the poisoj and fire damage with agny is good. But incinerate can get resisted and the cast range is short, and requires at least 1 debuff on enemies… And doesnt work well with other plagues. Fumigate is a weak debuff removal skill because its slow. Gohei does better. And btw gohei also removes enemy beneficial buffs like how disenchant has a “chance” to. To do damage, remove debuff and remove enemy buffs, u need 3 skills for pd. Miko needs 1, with 4 overheat and quick cd btw. Healing factor is amazing, but its 1 target and if you take damage to quickly it wont heal u up quickly enough

I agree with u that the devs are bad at balancing and most classes are imbalanced. Sadhu is weak we know, kabbalist is not so strong. We know. But chill out with the comparisons mate. Paladin isnt even that much better than sadhu… Paladin isnt strong, but sadhu is just sh!ttier. Oracle is amazing in pvp too, their prophecy has full uptime btw with 10 blocks and most debuffs are rank1. Druid carnivory doesn’t touch flying mobs and requires chrostamata in most places. U wanna talk op talk about miko thats more appropriate.

I’m not saying that Paladin is any better than Sadhu, but the developers did a better job on balancing the class and made it logical within itself.
It has damage skills on Circle 1 and 3 [which are focusing on devil and mutant monsters] as well as support skills on every Circle that are useful.
The lasting time of buffs compared to their CD time is basically 1:1[Restoration,Barrier] - ~1:1,5[ Resist Elements], and Conviction and Resist Elements even debuff the enemies they hit.

Meanwhile, Sadhu only has one non-channeling attack (Astral Body Explosion) with 30 seconds CD time. Although the damage % is quite promising (250% +x), you’d need to have several thousands of matk to beat the damage that 6 lvl 15 Smites can do in the 30 seconds CD time of Astral Body Explosion. Also, we have to accept that the skills of Sadhu don’t really work well together, e.g. many skills are channeling skills that are interrupted if hit during cast/channeling [Vashita Siddhi, Possession, Astral Body Explosion and OOB is also cancelled on some attacks that stagger, knockdown or knockback your character], and Astral Body Explosion even ends your OOB state, which means you have to recast OOB to attack again in OOB state.
The only advantage Sadhu has over Paladin is that he doesn’t have CD time on OOB, but he has to sacrifice all his physical defence during OOB and enemies will get drawn towards the body if attacked during OOB state.
That’s why Sadhu has to utilize either high dodge rate, Barrier scrolls, Safety Zone, Fade or some other protection skills to safely damage during OOB, which gives the skill an indirect CD time (except if used with Barrier), at least for higher level content [lvl 300+].

So, all in all Sadhu is antagonizing itself with its skills [ Transmit Prana weakens his attacks by removing his stats partially, Vashita Siddhi and Possesion disable the Sadhu during channeling so he can’t do anything else unless he stops channeling, OOB weakens his body by reducing his physical defence to 0 and disabling the body from moving and 3 skills are only able to be used during OOB state {Vashita Siddhi, Praktiri and Astral Body Explosion} with two directly ending OOB state, making it impossible to combo with these skills].

They are not working together and even exclude themselves from being stackable/comboable, and some of them even ignore other class buffs/skills (OOB state ignores buffs like Sacrament, Last Rites, Aspergillum, Blessing e.g.), which makes them bad for point 3 of the devs plan, as they don’t work together with other class skills, thus unabling Sadhu to develope playing strategies with specific other classes, on top of being even only partially self-reliant…

This shows how the balance can be good [Paladin] and bad [Sadhu] within one Rank of the same base class, and the point I wanted the people to notice without having to go into detail, but it seems I was misunderstood and thought of talking about one class being “better” than the other one xD