Tree of Savior Forum

Cleric attack rework: make skills scale with your highest attack value

Suggestions Game
#1

As a matter of fact, I came from playing Dragon Nest EU after TOS got slightly better and after I got fed up from the cash grabs in Dragon Nest in general.

However, this is not the point I want to address this time. The point I want to make is simple:
Dragon Nest introduced a system with its renewal patch that changed the attack system of the game.

To sum it up in a few words, they made skills scale with your highest attack values, and turned them into physical or magical attacks in the process, with the exemption of the Paladin skill branch if the attack featured magic and physical attack properties.

What I want to suggest is that you add something similar to TOS, but for the Cleric class only, to make the class feel more consistent in gameplay and to open more variation in builds&gameplay options.
Skills should scale with your highest attack value while still retaining their nature of being a physical or magic attack.

It would work like the following:

A Cleric Paladin Inquisitor (e.g.) uses Heal to attack a monster. His basic attack value is 1000-2000, while his magic attack is somewhere around 500-700. Heal would take the highest atk value (which is the 1000-2000 physical attack) to calculate its damage, but still retain its magic attack nature, thus being calculated against magic defence of the monster.
Basically, this system equalizes matk and patk, so you just have to invest into one of them via status points & transcendence of weapons, as the current weaponry only allows you to transcend either magic attack or physical attack, depending on the weapons main stat.

This current transcendence/upgrade system, however, causes a large deficit for Clerics, as they either have to transcend/upgrade 2 weapons per character and switch them to be 100% effective or to forsake some skills as magic skills won’t deal any damage on monsters with a high magic defence if you didn’t transcend the “right” mace/rod and spent your statpoints in INT while physical skills have low damage potential without investment into DEX/STR for accuracy, critrate, block penetration and raw physical damage (and of course without the right mace or a sword transcended).

The other base Classes [Archer,Swordsman,Wizard] don’t have to fight with this issue, as all of their skills have only 1 attack stat (patk or matk) they scale off from, giving their transcendence 100% potential while Cleric has ± 50% only (more or less depending on his build/Class choices/weapon choice!!! swords and rods don’t give any bonus matk/patk so they are inferior to maces and basically can’t be used efficiently although they can be equipped by Clerics) with the current spread between patk and matk.

It would be easy to introduce this e.g. with two toggleable Cleric Class attributes[ “all magic attacks calculate with patk instead of matk” and “all physical attacks calculate with matk instead of patk”], and it could come with a catch that the damage of the corresponding skills will be lowered a little (10-15% damage decrease of all magic attack skills or physical attack skills, depending on the attribute toggled),
which makes this switching more lucrative for those who invested more time and silver in their characters.

#2

no

if all cleric use magic attack

who will use mace then?

rod have higher potential in magic while mace is hybrid weapon

some mace give huge in both stat (ex. catacombs club, vienarazis mace)

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#3

I knew that this kind of objection would come.
In general one could agree with you, but here’s the catch:

If you have decreased damage on these skills, until a certain degree of investment it’s not very compromising to stick to a certain stat.

Let me elucidate for you why this system would be stable:
Physical attacks are objective to accuracy and critical rate, which means that unless you invest into DEX statwise, you can’t get the maximum damageoutput here.

So if you equip a rod to get a high matk to scale all your attack skills with matk, you lose your Dex boost on attack and 10-20% potential skilldamage due to the conversion penalty.

The same goes for INT builds, they can never pull the full potential out of physical skills because they lack the DEX/crit rate and accuracy to do so.

My suggestion would allow them to utilize those skills to a certain degree, though, especially if they transcended a weapon, because one of their attacks (either patk or matk) would be significantly larger, thus making skills that currently scale with only one of these attack types significantly stronger than the other one, which restricts physical Cleric builds and magical Cleric builds to contain only certain Classes.

If my idea gets realized,though, all Clerics could use all Classes and their skills, but with a slightly lower potential on their skills. This wouldn’t matter that much, though, since Rank 1-3 classes are basically only magical damage dealers and their skills useless for physical builds when reaching the lvl 280+ range of approximately 600 levels in total.

But back to your argument about maces becoming useless:

Mace will always be used because it gives bonus damage vs plate armor and grants magic attack as well as physical attack, while enabling you to stun enemies with a 10% chance when attacking them physically due to the Clerics Class attribute.

However, some people might then priorize rods and some swords, which is a good change, instead of currently being forced onto maces by default although rods and swords can be equipped,too.

#4

Hello, I also was a Dragon Nest EU player. I understand what you are thinking, but overall your suggestion wouldn’t fit tos play style. In cleric tree you are supposed to be a Magical or Physical class. Being hybrid and not loosing anything in process makes it too advantageous for clerics vs other classes. You shouldn’t be able to use krivis zaibas based on your physical attack than follow that with double punches from monk.

3 Likes
#5

It fits the concept, though, and you’re losing damage when converting if it’s done via attributes according to my suggestion.
You also face the trouble of having neither magical amplification nor accuracy/crit rate when converting, so it would provide a huge loss compared to going pure physical or magical.

But, as you said, Clerics are supposed to be hybrid classes [if they were not, why not divide the Cleric tree into two different paths, like Wizard and Swordsman e.g.?],
so why does the game itself prevent them so hard from doing so?
Maces only get 1 stat boosted via transcendence (either patk or matk), armor only grants magical or physical base stat boni (either DEX/STR or INT/SPR basically, the Solmiki medal and Petamion are singularities currently) and substats (either magic amplification or accuracy on gloves).

Then there’s the statsystem that punishes you by getting less bonus statpoints when you spread your statpoints, leaving your build with a way lower total point average.
And if you focus on one stat, there’s the problem of e.g. high mdef or pdef and evasion which makes your physical skills miss a lot and your magic skills deal bad damage due to the nature of Cleric skills having low base damage values which gets covered by the mdef of most lvl 280+ monsters.

It’s fact that if you opt for a physical build, your Rank 1-3 choices are becoming useless buff Classes, in contrast to Wizard, Archer and Swordsman, which is pretty unfair/biased of the developers, the same goes for Rank 6 and 7 where you don’t have a choice except going Paladin C3 or Monk C1 + 2.

If it were as you said and Cleric was really supposed to be either physical or magical, wouldn’t each Rank feature 1 physical based class and 1 magical based class? It doesn’t do so for Rank 2,3,6 and 7 [some classes even feature magical and physical skills, as Bokor, Dievdirbys, Inquisitor, Miko and even Druid if you count Lycantropy] though, so this concludes into Clerics being hybrid classes (Maces feature both matk and patk as hybrid weaponry, although there are rods and swords which can also be equipped by Clerics; Cleric Classes also have boni for Mace, e.g. God Smash dealing additional damage with maces or the Class attribute which adds stun chance to mace attacks).

#6

That’s all non-sense and doesn’t solve the problem that there are still people not playing cleric.
Clerics should gain 2 matk and patk with each point CON they have, critrate should scale with level*5 and as class bonus for clerics spells should also be able to crit.
I guess then everything is finally [RESOLVED].

4 Likes
#7

Magic does not miss in this game. So you can easily go a physical build and land your magic attacks on enemy.

Also clerics would go full str magical build. Since str is better than int.

2 Likes
#8

Noone would go full STR magical build, because STR isn’t better than INT, but the other way around.

Equip grants more INT boni, and INT scales with some skills, while STR just increases block penetration, weight limit, patk and crit attack. As magical skills can’t crit and most magic doesn’t require items to use, why would any Cleric right in his mind go full STR?

Do you even play the game?Oo
You get INT boni from the best maces and armors, but no to low STR boni from them, and you wouldn’t be able to improve your attack so much in contrast to INT.

There’s also the issue of physical attack not being constant, it’s always x-y damage, while magic damage has always only 1 fixed value unless increased with Red gems via maximum attack. So, transcending a rod or mace with matk as primary stat will always net in a higher value of damage over time than your RNG-dependent STR+patk -> conversion.

Also, if you have to take a penalty of 10-20% to your final damage, going STR can’t give you any advantage over INT.
Please read the whole concept before posting some nonsensical answer please <_<

#9

Okay here are some facts,
With a fully upgraded and transcended weapon and proper headgear, even going full int effects your damage by %8-%11 there are 3 exceptions (heal - cure - zaibas)
***This was not a comparison between full str and full int its was between 0 and full int.

You are actually right going full str is stupid its probably better to go dex/con since you will be adding you a lot of survivability. Int and Str are both Bad stats right now they wont matter anywhere.

You asked me if I play the game, yes I do. And please before going in to full bashing mode go check the current end game meta for classes. No one wants to see a cleric deal good damage with both smite and incinerate. Clerics are already the best class in the game. The are not the main damage dealers and its better this way.

1 Like
#10

Seems like you don’t play the game at all. 1st of all, there is no meta for damage dealers, tanks, healers, etc. in the game.

You speak of meta and endgame content but you don’t even know that?
You can just get enough defence to reduce all incoming damage to nearly nothing and can just pot to recover your HP and SP without having any great loss as lvl 15 Alchemist potions are dirt cheap and only have 30 seconds CD time. There’s no place for tanks or healers endgame, either you’re a dealer or an Ausrine/Melstis bot for ET.

But let’s put endgame aside. Main damage dealers don’t exist in this game, as it’s a game where you can freely choose your Class advancements.
The current problem is that there is too much disparity between certain Classes and Ranks that creates the problem of what people call “meta”, because it’s the most convenient/effective method of how to play the game.

And it revolves all about dealing damage after all, because you can’t advance in this game without damage (unless they introduce bosses who slowly kill themselves over time and you deal only 1 damage to them).
Clerics should not be forced to step down to Archers, Wizards or Swordsmen just because “reasons”.

Players playing Clerics also want to deal damage, and players playing Clerics also want the freedom of choice which Class they advance towards, similar to Wizards, Archers and Swordsmen who can freely combine all Classes with just a few restrictions on skills due to the weapon restriction.

If weaponry was the only problem of Clerics, I wouldn’t suggest this, but I believe it’s unfair to render several dozen percent of your skills/Classes basically unuseable just because they scale with the wrong attack value.

If you think the current system is right, you’re just another biased person who’s indoctrinated by the RPG meta of either magic damage dealers or physical damage dealers that sees the word “Cleric” but reads it as “buffer” or “healer”…

#11

You talk like cleric doesn’t deal damage lol.
PD is the best mob clear lategame
inquisitor deals 1.5m++ damage with 1 skill to bosses
"Ausrine/Melstis bot for ET" is cleric
krivis + taoist deals 5m++ damage 1 combo
what else do you want wtf

1 Like
#12

u don’t need every skill to do domage as cleric
i have paladin3pd2
who care about smite?
even if i max full dex and op weapon with yellow gem
conviction smite still do little damage compare to bds+incineration

pd2 do50k damage/sec with nooby cata club+agny
smite? carve attack? even it scale with magic it still do little damage

if i have high-dex inquisitor, do i need to care about healing damage?
do i rely to cure as damage skill?

i have diev3
carve attack is physical skill bu who care
i just use it as filler, i don’t care is it cri or not, it still do little damage compare to other skill in late game

someone playing diev2monk3
mace already give good magic attack for owl (especially when compare to full con diev)
it isn’t main attack skill anyway

cleric don’t need everything
just pick a good one of it and you will be fine

magic aoe sustain dps from plague doctor2
burst from lightning taoist
physical attack from inquisitor
and other class also good as path
or just being a support that doesn’t need heavy damage

1 Like
#13

…
salt confirmed, nuff said

1 Like
#14

it’s never been salt
since black death steam + incineration do everything

conviction just amplify pd skill damage
i just add conviction and pandemic to skill rotation if i’m not lazy

solo play is easy as pie
questing, doing practo on317, grinding, saalus, rush dg, nothing hard

1 Like
#15

What the hell are you even arguing? You are arguing with like 10-20% of the skills/classes/possible builds and say “Oh, some builds deal damage, so the rest doesn’t need an increase in power”…

What the heck? We are talking about rebalancing for all Cleric Classes here, so stop arguing with the only 10-20% of Classes/Skills which are currently effective on every build, because the other 80-90% are not.
Meanwhile, 100% of skills are effective on Archers,Swordsmen and Wizards, which is why I suggested this kind of rebalancing to give every Cleric Class a fair chance to appear within a Cleric build and to stop this meta.

In the first place, Taoist and Inquisitor are out of talk because they are Rank 8 classes. Their base damage of skills is so high (the same with all other Rank 8 Classes) that it doesn’t matter if the enemy has a few k defence, as you don’t even need to consider weapon transcendence at all to deal damage.

The way you guys argue, we could also say: “Hey, Swordsman has Dragoon C2, so all other Classes in Swordsman tree don’t need any damage, since Dethrone can cover for it” or “Hey, Archer has Musketeer C2, so all other Archer Classes don’t need to deal damage since Snipe can cover for it”.

If you can’t understand that your own argueing against my suggestion is enforcing meta instead of removing it, you should try reeducating yourselves. How about trying to give alternatives to rebalancing the Cleric Class tree instead of sulking “Inquisitor OP, Taoist OP, PD OP”.

It’s exactly this reason, that Inquisitor, Taoist and PD are too good why I want to bring the other Classes to see the light <_<

Then the thing about Plague Doctor: Go try Plague Doctor without any matk or INT or Agny Necklace and look at his Incineration damage. If you still think that it’s strong, I don’t know what to say.
Incineration is strong because the damage is multiplied 2 times with the help of Plague Vapors and Agny Necklace and is damage per tick, not per cast [like Smite, Astral Body Explosion, Turn Undead, Indulgentia, Decatose, Carve Attack, Conviction, Hand Knife, Palm Strike, etc.].

The rest of the Cleric Classes don’t have any so strong multipliers, damage over time, base damage,etc., and if they’re just empty Ranks to help you level to max level, there is no point in playing this game at all, and you can just play another game since the free Class choice isn’t currently working and it’s the most apparent inside the Cleric tree.

If you really want to sink the ship, please leave TOS alone, your comments are not constructive but destructive and without any reasoning to back up your opinions.

#16

this has always been the downside of any hybrid build. if for any chance a method like this existed, everyone will be doing a hybrid patk/matk build because theres too few drawbacks in it

1 Like
#17

Yes so when magic based cleric skills hit on high mdef mobs then they can still deal damage. Meanwhile wizards are still meh and archer is still average,

2 Likes
#18

You are missing the point. You say cleric classes dont have %100 efficiency and thats what you are looking for. But even then they easily deal more damage than other classes. Going in to physical path, you still have the ability to heal and cure etc. with your magical skills, going in to magical you get one of the best dps skill (cure) right from circle 1.

If you are going to complain because the class path you have chosen is bad /not optimal, I suggest you check the other class topics too because cleric tree is the most forgiving out of 4 classes.

2 Likes
#19

Have you even tried these classes to be able to claim something like this, like seriously what are you even saying here. This one really makes me question if you’re trolling or not. :no_mouth:

I have no idea how you came into this conclusion, you talk about reasoning and backing up your opinions, yet you don’t use anything else than some bad classes on the cleric tree which makes me question if you have taken the time to get to know the other 3 branches as well.
I guess others don’t do it cause your comments are ridiculous to them.
I do agree that cleric needs rebalancing for many of the lower rank classes. Your way, at least for now, isn’t the way to go as cleric is currently the strongest class branch in the game. They have insane amount of damage while having a huge amount of support and utility, no other class can compare with this.
I also don’t see your suggestion making the bad skills good, I think it has more to do with how the damage is calculated in the game in a grander scale than just your own p.attack/m.sttack, fyi other class braches have terrible skills as well. :confused:

You can’t just start adding more power to cleric branch as a whole without considering the state of other branches. These weaker cleric classes can sure be buffed individually nothing wrong with that but as a whole no. As long as cleric can excel both in terms of damage and in support and utility all at the same time, it’s too strong. If you give cleric as much power as other classes they should be able to have as much utility and support as cleric to keep up. There is a reason why generally cleric like classes are mostly for supporting and not damage in games since it easily becomes very unbalanced for other classes. Cleric srsly doesn’t need to have everything. :confused:

1 Like
#20

heal, cure doesn’t have multiplier?

then look at swordman and wizard

is bash, thrust, energy bolt, earthquake better than heal and cure?

ok back to cleric

is owl damage suck? zaibas damage in thunder?

then look at ice bolt, pyro pre-agny patch or other swordman skill
like highlander and barbarian

how many skill falloff? how many skill useful till late game?

compare to cleric utility skill like ausrine revive res tree safety zone that useful in every stage of the game

free class isn’t useful?
joke?
sometimes i need diev’s ausrine/priest’s revive more than damage from druid/pd

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