The problem is that people are trying to have a build that can do all. Well, you can’t have that. Find people, make connections, and learn to build synergy. There are some classes that flat out don’t well together, but that is how diversity works.
in another words run meta baby… good thinking.
Not sure what you’re smoking, but an obvious attempt to twist the post the wrong way.
The problem here is that their reasoning for not having a class reset from the get-go is already a flawed core design trait.
Saying that any decision is being deliberated or discussed because Tree of Savior is based on it’s unique class system and not wanting to compromise it is kind of ridiculous because it’s really not unique, compared to any other MMO that would allow such resets.
Every MMO has a diverse range of classes, some more or less than others. The only difference is the totem pole approach IMC took with TOS, it’s like the equivelant of leveling a class in another game to 20, then swapping classes to level to player level 40 (that new class is class level 1) and learning the skills you learn from 1-20 from the new class in the 20-40 range.
This doesn’t present any kind of daringly unique game design mechanic that should immune to change, because right now for very many good reasons argued already by people intelligent enough to have the foresight to see past their nose, any form of logic that protects the current class system is flawed, because the class system itself just doesn’t work for long term players.
It isn’t built around long term retention and the numbers already show that this game is lacking elements necessary for that retention. Long term retention design would entail that we do have a way to switch roles at the very least occasionally or through the item shop.
Saying that there won’t be class resets “cuz special class system” is essentially defending an already deeply flawed fundamental design trait, which is the class system itself, hence it isn’t worth defending.
The only circumstance in which this class system is 100% fair to everyone in all situations and would require no second thought is if every single possible circle combination were balanced and effective, but this is IMPOSSIBLE. There’s no such thing as perfect balance. Other games have been doing this dance in WAY more concentrated balancing environments, like LOL and WOW, and have never succeeded in being perfectly balanced.
The issue with Tree of Savior is the advancement based class system. We can say ranks and circles all we want but when it comes down to it the character advances through classes several times throughout the game.
Games like Maplestory, Wonderking, La Tale, etc are all examples of this.
When using a system like this it’s no wonder early choices get knocked out later in the game. It’s progression. If all classes and all circles were balanced at end game you’d have over 30 keybindings and would never be able to rotate through all your skills. It’s that simple.
It happens in every game with a class system like this. It happened in Ragnarok with the rebirth system. In happened in Maplestory. It happened, always.
It’s clear from the beginning that pyromancer was not meant to be a class that would be great at endgame. It’s scaling is just not there.
The problem is the utility some classes bring. Utility is always there and never gets outscored by content. A cryomancer will always be able to freeze things unless new content shows mobs with status resistance. A chronomancer will always provide +15 movement speed.
DPS based classes do not have this. But you guys are rewarded with better classes with even better DPS as you get deeper into the game.
To say that Tree of Savior needs all classes to be scaled and balanced is impossible. To say that the system is bad is saying that the system is flawed. But this is the basis of which Tree of Savior’s class system is built on.
We are at the mercy of which classes developers feel should be at the later ranks. But this is the same with all games which has these type of class system. If you don’t like it, it may be that ToS is not the game for you.
Games like WoW, Aion, GW, etc which are more modern based MMOs do not have advancement based class system. You character is one classes and learns a set number of skills so they control the amount of actions you can learn.
ToS is not that. The only way they can control your gameplay to make it balanced is by controlling the skills they want you to use at different stages of the game.
Umm… so it’s linear under the disguise of ‘having choices’? lol this makes no sense to me. If the company wants you to use the skills they want me to use, then why include all these choices in the first place? May as well keep it linear like other MMOs at this point right?
These choices could add lots of flavor and variety to the game but they are just there to force you to discover the right choices based on what the company wants you to build? Am I’m reading you correctly?
#This is actually how I feel about that lol:
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How is this any different from Ragnarok, Maplestory, La Tale, World of Warcraft, Aion, Guild Wars 2, etc?
Developers have always controlled your gameplay experience. With some games it’s not as obvious because the choices are more limited. Games with limitless options are different and developers obviously don’t want you to have 30+ skills keybound.
We need a reset. Not everyone has the time to reroll a class, besides you need to taste your class at three stages of the game: early, mid and late. Then you can say “I like this path or I don’t like this path” . To be fair with everyone a class reset need a decent amount of delay after each use (at least a week or two).
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Why we need class reset? Because the game is still too bugged, unbalanced and without enough information. A LOT of skills need more information, rebalance or even rework. Now lets take someone who have to work and pay the bills. How much time per day he/she can play? Maybe at most 2 hours? Now how much time (months) to get to R7. Then he/she make a build based in the today skills, take his/her time goes all way to R6~R7, skip some C2/C3 ranks because they are really bad or worthless ATM. Then one beatifull day they rework the classes to become better. Now what he/she does?
A) Pay to reset (a lot of others games give this option for free in major changes)
B) Start over again.
C) Given no reset option, just rage quit.
I’m not even talking about adding more classes (R7 or lesser) or the future rank 8, 9 and so on. So each new rank = delet char and start over again?
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some people will say “just play a unplayable character” or “just start over its no time ,i can do it 24/7 as i don’t have work or life” but really when they do rework of some classes and don’t give a reset people will leave.
but at this time this is how it is.buy choice or mistake.
like if you didn’t take peltasta as swordsman you doing it wrong.
It’s extremely hard to balance games, not a single mmo has a good decent balance. WoW tried to balance its classes in wotlk and that ended up just giving everybody the same skill with a different name / animation. Which became a bore fest for many.
This game allows you to advance the way you want, but some people in my groups have just randomly selected all these different classes and end up doing absolute crap dmg later on, because they didn’t figure out before they started if that would actually work.
What if you for example pick all those rank 1 different class choices, sure your dmg will suck badly at the end. Because you do not have any 3rd level skills, fun at the start when you one hit everythign with all your skills, but when content gets harder its game over.
There is zero way to balance a game like this.
Ro also didn’t gave you much of a choice when it came to builds, you either moved this prebuild solution or this prebuild solution. If you didn’t your dmg output would be bad.
No matter if it gave you the idea that you had lots of choices you really didn’t have much at all.
And in RO there was zero to no balance to be found. The game was absolute terrible when it came to that.
If you don’t got the time or don’t want to spend the time on rerolling and figuring stuff out, then you should have picked a premade build from other people online. That’s what i did. Then after your first char is max level, you will know what is good and what is not. Never go in blind in a game it will backfire.
I don’t really see a problem with 30 binds, that’s a pretty reasonable number for an endgame character in an MMO intent on having actual combat depth in a PvE setting.
this post has more text than the bible , summary pls?
It’s about analyzing the game from a balance perspective and scaling perspective rather than a “We need class resets” perspective.
Though some people chose to turn it into a class reset discussion while others saw the actual point of my post and gave feedback regarding the balance and scaling of the game.
Then it escalated to discussions about how the actual class system operates. How the game company themselves intended for you to choose x and x build and how everything is on a ‘vertical progression’ scale. This lead to further debates about the purpose of having variety if you are supposed to do this and this and that anyways.
/thread up to this point.
You don’t need tons of key binds to have combat depth. It’s been proven by other MMOs that less is more. Some of the most engaging gameplay, combat and boss fights come from games with less than 10 keybinds.
Having over 20 attack key binds would be impossible to manage - especially with chrono’s pass. All this does is make skills irrelevant and forms rotations.
This is most likely what will happen. People will simply not use rank 2-4 skills because 5+ skills are just better to use and you can’t rotate them all without losing efficiently.
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So explain me why pro players find OP combos developers didn’t know themselves. Patches make what you say totally wrong. The true gameplay is made by players.
It is true. Developers depend a lot on the gamers playing the game and showing them what needs to be changed / balanced / fixed. It’s just too hard in any serious game for a developer to get everything right on their own in a reasonable amount of time.
I have 36+ binds in FFXIV per character
The difference?
Those skills are fixed, except for the 5 from cross-class, of which are practically fixed since out of the 5/5 slots you get for cross-class only 5/6 options are valid in the first place.
That’s all for the sake of balance to keep every Job within line.
Even still the devs have literally gone on to say letting one class the ability to choose which Job (arcanist being either summoner or Scholar) was the worst balance mistake they made. The result is that their healer Scholar has a dps foundation that stands above all the other healers and yet they struggle to bring it in line because that same foundation is used by the summoner. They’ve also said they won’t repeat that mistake. Guild Wars 1 had balance problems with its secondary professions as well, which they evaded in GW2. Even still GW2 went further to try and limit options by fixing the skills on your bar further. It has balance concerns out of those choices granted.
Even fighting games with fixed movesets per character have balance concerns and these are games with far more competitive pressure then MMO’s, to be balanced. Tree of Savior’s is only making itself inpracticality difficult to retain a decent amount of balance by trying to keep all those skills in use because of its class system.
Tree of Savior on the other hand is full of those deviations.
Maybe you think Priest C3 + Monk is overpowered, but if you nerf priest now you affected Chaplain, now you affected PriestC3 + Pardoner. You might have also affected C2 Priest + Paladin or C2 Priest + sadhu ( i know its crap, this is all figurative).
Players have multiple different routes at every rank (basically 24/25 at rank 4,5,6, and 7 every step of the way)
Not only do you get keybind bloat but the abilities aren’t fixed to all be meaningful because you don’t necessarily know what path they took to reach that point. The only way to ensure “hey this player is alright for the content” is to make sure that the rank itself is balanced for content at that rank.
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