Tree of Savior Forum

[Class] Kabbalist Overview

Yeah, sadly Restoration can be made into a scroll :cry:, if only they could buff paladin more… Anyway scrolled Restoration doesn’t gain the benefit of attributes, in which the 50 SP restoration do help me throughout the journey to 280. Granted with Kabbalist SP isn’t a problem anymore when soloing, but throughout all my parties in grinds/missions/dg/saalus etc, Ein Sof is hardly used on me. All went to the dpsers who can turn the SP into more damage, and having more SP recovery does benefit more and save $ in the long run.

Paladin isn’t worth a full 3 circles if plan to take it for defensive buffs and options for pve, C1 will suffice. For bossing/pvp… it is really lacking.

As for Daino scrolls, just 1 scroll is needed to give the entire team their Daino buff. I use it all the time on my Thau/Chrono alt. Regular party play unless you are building a priest/kabbalist and teaming up with a Thaumaturge/Chorno, daino is rarely needed.

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[quote="_Nekorin, post:410, topic:212234"]
As for Daino scrolls, just 1 scroll is needed to give the entire team their Daino buff. I use it all the time on my Thau/Chrono alt. Regular party play unless you are building a priest/kabbalist and teaming up with a Thaumaturge/Chorno, daino is rarely needed.
[/quote]How does this work? I thought that for buff scrolls, you use it and only gain the buff for yourself for the duration?

I also still stand by Daino - be it through Krivis or scrolls - for builds like P3/C2 though. There’s just too many buffs… Divine Might, Blessing, Sacrament, Aspersio (which I wouldn’t use myself but people might still buy it from spell shops), and Monstrance (already worth if if there’s even a single physical user in party) already makes 5. Then there’s Stoneskin and Revive, then buffs from other ranks (usually at least 1 more, but PD has 3 counting Beak Mask), AND all that is not counting people’s self-buffs.

Clerics and Swordies don’t have it as bad, since their base buff limit is higher. But for Archers/Wiz, it’s 5 base, one more can be assumed to be there with rank5 attribute, but not everyone has VIP. And if the person has self-buffs then, which most do… welp.

Daino scrolls work like the actual Daino spell. It buffs the player and the player’s party if they are within the buff range.

Yeah I agree that the number of buffs we can have for archers/wiz is very low… my thau/chrono gives… enchant fire/swell left arm/haste/quicken… already +4 buffs zzz. Which is why I bring Daino scrolls everywhere I go when I use a chrono.

As the Overview states. I do not like it when people go Krivis JUST for Daino. Now, if you are able to benefit from the rest of the kit of Krivis1, I do not mind it. There were a lot of threads and old builds that had Krivis just for the sake of Daino. I actually like the Krivis1 if you are going PD, because you get additional debuffs for Incinerate. The point still stands of Daino Scrolls are great, use them.

Pally1 nets you 3 efficient abilities. Restoration saves you money with SP in the long run, Resist Elements is both a buff and debuff, Smite is a great filler ability that does significant damage without STR invested.

You need Spell Shop to even sell the scrolls from the non-Marketplace… Pardoner also provides great support options outside of vending buffs. Like the MDEF buff and Debuff Extender.

Well that was pretty much the only reason that I suggested Sadhu for an INT-Kabbalist. Yes, the class is bugged, but it gives you another option for damage while other abilities are down.

Also keep in mind the Circles selected are with Kabbalist assumed to be the Rank 7.

do you think khab would make a good last class for a cleric priest diev all c2. going full support. or is plague or diev 3 better?

Yes. You’ll gain SP Restoration which helps a lot with the end game grind. AoE Damage with Merkabah. RS is another damage reduction skill. The key in your build is that you are able to restore SP. Kabbalist have a slight edge in Full-Support for PvE content because of that.

PD is a good option. You’ll have several debuffs that you can play off of to increase your Incinerate damage. Additionally you can cleanse debuffs. So it allows you to do good damage with your existing Full Support kit. PD has a nice well-rounded kit, good for both PvP and PvE.

Diev3, would get you Ausrine for invulernability, more levels in carve owl for damage, and extra points of the other statues. Also not a bad option, it just builds on you existing strengths.

Overall you have great options for Rank 7. I’d pick the option you’d feel more into, PD and Kabbalist both provide good support and damage. I would say Kabbalist if you are looking more into PvE stuff.

thanks for the tip! yeah ill go cleric c2 and diev c3 but… I dont know being an sp pot is nice but merkabah is sooo slooooow :confused: Im honestly thinking about pardoner or PD :confused:

@Sakane Daino scrolls are unsustainable for general use, unless you’re rich and can afford to easily waste money. You’ll need 18 scrolls/hour, at 200s duration with no attribute… and if you’re using lv5 ones, which fluctuate around 5~7k depending on server, that’s 90~126k/hour on scrolls alone.

That’s a viable amount of money to spend on PvP/GvG or ET, but for something as simple, mechanic and time-consuming as grinding or farming, it’s not. Even lv1 scrolls won’t come cheaply…


[quote="Sakane, post:413, topic:212234"] Pally1 nets you 3 efficient abilities. Restoration saves you money with SP in the long run, Resist Elements is both a buff and debuff, Smite is a great filler ability that does significant damage without STR invested. [/quote] The main point of Restoration is for boosting the healing power of your Heal tiles (an unlisted effect of the buff)... SP recovery is handy, but not what you'd get it for.

Classes shouldn’t be gotten for filler abilities if they fall off lategame as hard as Smite does… and Resist Elements at lv5 isn’t currently very good either. Turn Undead’s actually p good aoe-wise too, but long CD rip It’s a decent circle, it’s just there are better choices, and Smite barely does anything endgame without Conviction. If we ever get the 6/16 KR patch for Resist Elements, it’ll become significantly better though.


[quote="Sakane, post:413, topic:212234"] You need Spell Shop to even sell the scrolls from the non-Marketplace... Pardoner also provides great support options outside of vending buffs. Like the MDEF buff and Debuff Extender. [/quote]...uhh, Spell Shop doesn't allow you to trade anything other than Sacrament/aspersio/Blessing afaik... and with the 50% tax, if you consider the market prices and buff costs, you'll very quickly see it isn't profitable at all either.

You’re right that Pardoner brings great support options though, but those come with circle 1. Discerning Evil at lv5 is more than enough for most applications: lv5 is enough for 100% upkeep on party’s Incineration for example, so lv10 does not bring much. Meaning the only good place to spend points at in c2 would be Enhance MDEF… that rank could be much better spent elsewhere.

It’s like Peltasta 1. Good options, yes, but you get pretty much everything you’d ever need with only one circle… anything further is either just not worth it, or decent but not enough justification to go beyond c1.


[quote="Sakane, post:413, topic:212234"] Well that was pretty much the only reason that I suggested Sadhu for an INT-Kabbalist. Yes, the class is bugged, but it gives you another option for damage while other abilities are down.

Also keep in mind the Circles selected are with Kabbalist assumed to be the Rank 7.
[/quote]It’s relevant to note that where you suggest the build, then. Most beginners wouldn’t think a certain class is bugged right off the bat, so it is easily a source of confusion. and yeah, my mentions of other rank7 classes were a reply to another person, I think.

I believe it’s also relevant to note that without Cleric2 or Priest3, your support will suffer in parties. Even then, it’s not like Cleric1 builds aren’t viable, but they’re mostly solo-oriented, which is something most beginners wouldn’t go for right off the bat (not as a cleric anyway)… and they might not be ready for the pressure and negative feedback they get in party play once the party realizes the build doesn’t have Cleric2.

Overall, this is all meant to be constructive feedback. I wouldn’t have bothered doing this if I didn’t think the guide was good :slight_smile:

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

For SP recovery you just need 5 attribute levels. They cap at level5 for +50 SP recovery. The help SP recovery provides is subtle though, we take maven grind as an example, there are numerous times where the party will need to traverse from 1 kill location to another, and the time to move through those locations/rooms is good enough for the party to have 1 tick of SP recovery, sure it is little, but it pays off though.

lvl5 resist elements give a +9% chance of nullification and a max +99 elemental def. If the ktos patch comes to itos, it will still be 9% chance of nullification and a 12.5% elemental damage reduction.

I do agree with smite’s damage though, it is currently too low. The only good thing about it is when use with the knockback attribute it gives some breathing room especially in tower defense battles (maven event for example)

Seeing ktos changing paladin’s skills do give me hope that more good things will come. :3

@_Nekorin Oh, I checked on tosbase and misread the levels as the ones for the attribute right above it. Thanks for pointing it out.

I didn’t bother checking the formula, so I just went with “oh lv15 was 37.5% after patch right?” and divided that by 3

That 12.5% elemental dmg reduction sounds still really desirable though… especially for a lv5 skill…

And same… the Conviction + Smite bug was a really big turnoff for me as I intend on making a physical Pally, but isn’t it just something that’d get fixed eventually? They are actively buffing KR Paladin after all, no way they won’t notice the bug at some point.

The suggestion with selling the scrolls with Pardoner comes with the idea someone could go, Priest or Krivis into Pardoner then Kabbalist for the scroll crafting. I think I mention it in the Pardoner section as a suggestion.

Typically, players level the Pardoner up to Rank 6 for the Spell Shop, set it up, then log into a different character to level that. Which is really nice, but there are players that want to level up their crafter’s to max, while also being effective in content.

Here’s generally why I don’t like Krivis 1 dips. I understand why people do it currently, it’s great for the single dip currently (Zaibas, Zalciai, and Daino are all great). But thinking ahead you have 7 out of 10 (currently) Ranks unlocked right now. No ways to reset Class Selections. And very limited information on Rank 8+ classes that are to come. I would rather focus on an concept, idea or aspect and build off of that, rather than try to cover all everything. I just don’t want to ever be in a situation where that 1 Rank I spent on Krivis, might lock me out of something in the higher ranks. It’s just my personal opinion. Now if it comes down to that the Rank 8+ Classes aren’t impressive or work with what I am going for, then I’ll probably reconsider dipping Krivis into my current build.

[quote=“Sakane, post:421, topic:212234”]
The suggestion with selling the scrolls with Pardoner comes with the idea someone could go, Priest or Krivis into Pardoner then Kabbalist for the scroll crafting. I think I mention it in the Pardoner section as a suggestion.

Typically, players level the Pardoner up to Rank 6 for the Spell Shop, set it up, then log into a different character to level that. Which is really nice, but there are players that want to level up their crafter’s to max, while also being effective in content.
[/quote]I understand that, it’s just the way you worded it sounded like Spell Shop was required for selling Simony scrolls. (and they can’t be sold that way.)

I also understand that: however, as far as I know,

  1. Pardoner is the worst afk shop you can open. Squire and Alchemist both make significantly more, and even then it’s not like those two make a lot either. The current market price on Pardoner buffs + buff cost + buff price is just too overwhelming, you can manage 100~200 profit on each buff… 300~600 assuming you sell all three, which you often don’t, since Blessing only lasts ~10min due to hit count and Aspersio only really contributes in dungeons.

  2. Even with those settings, to even be competitive as a Pardoner in the first place, you need lv15 on all three buffs… meaning you can’t invest on anything on the whole Priest tree but the buffs. This essentially makes those three ranks close to useless, effectively making your whole character useless.

I mean, it’s still viable even with all those factors, I guess… but it’s far from a “great option”, at least if going for Spell Shop, because you’d either have to gimp the whole character for it or the character’d sell pretty much nothing. Battle-wise, you also get very limited utility compared to circle 1, as I explained in my earlier post… so in the end I consider it pretty much a waste of a circle.

Pardoner1’s pretty great though. The utility’s good, and while Simony isn’t really a huge money maker either, it’s at least decent money over time (assuming you have good classes to make scrolls from), and you can support your alts with your own scrolls.


[quote="Sakane, post:421, topic:212234"] But thinking ahead you have 7 out of 10 (currently) Ranks unlocked right now. No ways to reset Class Selections. And very limited information on Rank 8+ classes that are to come. I would rather focus on an concept, idea or aspect and build off of that, rather than try to cover all everything. I just don't want to ever be in a situation where that 1 Rank I spent on Krivis, might lock me out of something in the higher ranks. [/quote]That makes sense, but if you're going to think ahead, here's something to think about: IMC has confirmed there's a Pardoner revamps in the works (I assume mainly regarding Simony), and they were particularly concerned about Krivis's Daino losing usefulness due to it being Simony-able.

This was stated back in Nov 2015, and there’s been no word since then. I assume they’re busy with higher priority issues, such as server stability, ping/fps issues, and they might be wracking their brains over RMT and bots. But one way or another, this means that it’s highly likely that Daino scrolls will no longer be an option in the future.

Meaning, if you need Daino and you don’t have Krivis, you’re screwed. They might buff our buff limits if this happens (Krivis would become meta to the point people would reroll for that one dip…), or they might not, but either way, it’s likely Krivis will stay meta for endgame party play.


Also, no matter whether we keep the ability of using Daino scrolls or not - we won't, but hypothetizing we do - it's highly unlikely any of the new Cleric r8~10 classes will fix the issue of Cleric2>Priest3 overbuffing. From a development perspective, if they were to add more buff limit buffs, it'd make much more sense to give them to the other three main lines.

Meaning, even if you were to keep the ability of using Daino scrolls, you’d still be spending 90~126k/hour on lv5 scrolls, and no problems were solved.

…and if we’re going to talk about dips future-wise, hell, there’s barely any point in recommending anything right now. After all, how can I tell if Oracle c1/Druid c1 are good dips for example, if they might be nerfed or become irrelevant and that one rank spent on them locks me out of something?

Im happy with my Cleric 3 > Sadhu 3 > Kabbalist
Pure Int
Sorc loves me <3

I read your responses as two different topics. Now it makes more sense when read together.

  1. Considering Pardoner is the Cleric’s only real “Merchant” style class, it might be unfair to compare it to Squire and Alchemist, since I assume if you are looking at the Overview, you are looking into Kabbalist. If players really are looking for better money options, then yes, I wholeheartedly agree Squire and Alchemist are much better.

  2. Technically, you can only get Level 10 Sacrament so there are 5 points leftover. But I understand what you mean.

(3.) Honestly, the Pardoner Class is in a weird state. It seems IMC started them off OP, then dailed it way back and has been too busy since to do any major updates.

My reasoning for not taking Krivis 1 stems largely from that unknown with the future of the classes. Maybe there will be a buff/nerf to Daino Scrolls, what happens if a Wizard/Archer/Swordsmen Class suddenly gets access to increased buff slots? What if they add the buff slot attributes for every Rank after Rank 5? The possibilities are endless at this point.

My personal preference are builds that specialize in a concept or goal. My current build is Cleric 2 > Priest 3 > Chaplain > Kabbalist works fine without Daino in the kit. But then again I am extremely aware of the limitations of my build and work around those by managing my buffs and are aware of what classes have what buffs so I do not override them. But I feel like that’s a different discussion for another thread.

Please understand, I’ve edited sections to the Overview multiple times. Sometimes I forget that some lines do exist that I don’t remember putting in. I think the “Great Option” line was cut from a line about the MDef Buff scaling that doesn’t exist anymore in the Pardoner Section and I’ve just skimmed it over.


@joven_estanislao

Fletchers love you as well <3

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Wow, my walls of text are long enough that they can be misunderstood to be two different topics? Should I be concerned?.. welp.

Replying to quotes (click me) :arrow_backward: 1. Even if that was the point, Pardoner c1's still better by quite far than c2. c2 requires you to practically waste a perfectly good character to get nearly zero money from Spell Shop. c1, on the other hand, can play the "Merchant" role relatively satisfactorily (better than Spell Shop anyway), **and** make a solid battle character.
  1. Oh yeah, forgot Sacra was circle 2. But even then, just… it’d be worth it if it was good money… but it’s just downright awful. What was IMC even smoking when they decided to apply taxes…

  2. Yeah, I’m aware. As far as I know though, their current plan is to further nerf Simony LOL :smile: .


From IMC's concern of how Daino scrolls were making Krivis not worth it anymore (at least from their PoV), it isn't very likely for them to do anything that isn't nerfing or outright deleting the scroll. Also, for now IMC only mentioned a Pardoner revamp, not a buff limit revamp.

It wouldn’t be weird at all for us to get additional buff limits on further ranks though, but that’d be for accomodating for rank 8~10 buffs, not because IMC thinks Pardoner should be further nerfed or Krivis is overshadowed.

Well, at this point we’d just be speculating meta though. I understand what you mean. I do think it should at least be duly noted, however, that Cleric2>Priest3 builds (even moreso with Chaplain) will suffer without Daino in the hands of a beginner. No Krivis is perfectly viable, but only if you know what you’re doing, and you do sacrifice viable options that way. I highly doubt you use Monstrance, for example, which’d bring a great DEX buff to physical classes… Capella, which is situational but brings party-wide Stoneskin…

Either way, from most of what I’ve seen, no Krivis on certain builds (Cler2>P3 being the main offender) is only for that: if you know what you’re doing. It works, it has its pros and cons but is overall perfectly viable, but the people reading your guide might not have the same skill level - or confidence in their own skills - as you do.

It’s easy to overestimate the average reader… even if they’re perfectly capable of doing everything they need, if they feel they aren’t, then they aren’t. Roughly half of the ones reading would immediately go to the easier option when told “not beginner-friendly” or “only if you know what they’re doing”, for one reason or another: yes, some only do so out of laziness, but some others can’t really be blamed.

And there’s the option the person’s English is only basic-level… who’s going to explain indepth buff limit and how to properly manage buffs? “Not recommended for beginners”, on the other hand, is very easy to understand.




rants forever
yada yada throws text at u

But ya I understand, that’s good to know. The “great option” part was there when I mentioned it though, I quoted it word from word by checking at the time, not from memory… Pardoner2 is still Pardoner2 though…

…at this point I really feel I’m being too forceful and trying to butt in too much tbh. The main feedback from all posts and to the current version would be,

Summing feedback up (click me) :arrow_backward: * Depending on the build, Krivis1 for Daino can be very helpful, **is not necessary** and in your opinion you're essentially wasting a rank for a skill, but should only _not_ be taken if you know what you're doing.
  • Daino scrolls are still not cheap. MAYBE if you know what you’re doing you can roll with only them and make the cost affordable - for example, only using them in GvG/ET, so you can use Capella - but beginner builds should definitely not be based on this imho, at least not without serious consideration and research.

  • Bokor2’s actually pretty good for PvE afaik o.o, it’s true the zombies don’t scale well, but Hexing/Effigy exist and there’s good skills in c2 in the form of Mackangdal and Samediveve. In particular, this has very high single-target ~ few-targets DPS, Hexing+Effigy can target flying enemies, AND has good synergy with Kabba bc Effigy’s SP cost’s normally too high to spam.

  • Some options are probably less appealing than others either way, like Pally3 or Monk2. They do work, but the main reason atm for getting Pally3 is Barrier (scrollable, and this one is actually affordable since it’s situational), and Monk’s dmg is much better at 3 than 2. Monk and Pally3 don’t particularly benefit from the SP regen either, the synergy in general is bad. I could see Pally1 working for INT-Kabbalist though, or SPR or smth, just probably not STR.

Actually, I really can’t see any apparent Monk2 > Kabba synergy, even though you had someone to test it. Monk’s main resource consumption comes from Double Punch, which is stamina, which Kabba cannot recover… is this just meant to be offensive w/ Monk2, then Kabba for support?

  • Pardoner1’s 10x better than 2 for the reasons I mentioned imo.

  • Ehhh it’s probably relevant to mention that Chaplain’s damage falls off quite hard (at least in our current version) lategame. Otherwise, beginners might think it’s good solo DPS, when all it gives in that regard is solo ability - desirable, but might not be what the reader is looking for.



And then I ended up writing another wall of text anyway. Well, at least it's neatly sorted out. Reasons not mentioned are in what we've been discussing.

Take what you will from the feedback, I guess. Perhaps due to being untested and only meant as build suggestions, there was a lot to say. I’m still here for further discussion, I just really hope I’m not butting in tbh.

I actually enjoyed the discussion? iunno. I like to see where others stand with the Kabbalist as well. As I am 1 Person with an opinion. I accept that I am not able to see every angle of a build or arguement. Though I will try my hardest to understand!

I like most of your suggestions actually, as they are good points about the classes. I can only claim I am a Kabbalist Enthusiast and I have a working knowledge of the Cleric Classes, but honestly there is a lot of depth to the builds. Also your corrections make more sense wording wise as English technically isn’t my first language… tho it is my primary language… that I’ve been using for years and years… multiculturalism Yay!

Oh, if that’s so then we can keep discussing for as long as you’d like LOL. I just got really worried that I might’ve been started to butt in.

If there’s a suggestion you didn’t understand or disagree with, we can debate that if you’d like, and perhaps I will gain valuable information as well. (As I already have with the part of the thread concerning Kabbalist itself)

Most of my suggestions actually come from data gathering atm, so I can be easily wrong as well, that’s also why I didn’t mention Bokor at first (bc I didn’t know enough about the class). But I do think I’ve gathered a lot of data regarding Cleric and class synergy.


Bokor2 + Kabbalist is the class I see having the most pvm synergy atm (outside of just having Kabba support), because the SP consumption is insane, but if you can keep it up the dmg's really high. And if we pop Druid1 and Cure10/Heal10 in... not the highest burst dmg, not the lowest, but very very high sustained dmg for as long as SP allows.

There’s one more important synergy factor I forgot to mention, btw: Bokor can afflict the [Curse] Merkabah needs for [Petrification], it seems. I think Hexing is that [Curse], I haven’t tested though, but it’s definitely worth testing.

Nah it’s fine. But yeah, most of my notes are definitely more “On paper” and if I run into something in-game that counters or changes it, I just add on to the notes and makes the changes where I can. I also tried to be neutral in the re-write… keyword “tried”.

I think the merit of Bokor/Kabbalist are the sustained damage on a single target and some of the odd CC synergy they have. Bokor’s Hexing acts as [Curse] for the sake of the Petrification ability, I think it was resolved before in this thread. This application works in a build such as Cleric2>Bokor3>Pardoner1>Kabbalist for PvP. Where you can continuously pump out damage on a target while being extremely safe.

But yes, PvE/PvM Bokor is a bit odd as the Zombies are… not good. But the other parts of the Class are great in a PvP application. Though, I haven’t seen anyone attempt this build… maybe I’ll make it my alt or something in the future.

Sure thing then. Oh, just as a note though: what scales off of SPR for Aspersio is only the dmg part (which also scales equally with INT), not the buff.

And for Oracle, Resetting actually seems to be pretty useless - according to feedback from the Oracle thread - atm due to the long cooldown, and is also bugged and doesn’t always work. The class’s still good nevertheless though, with SP/stamina buff, Counterspell and Prophecy all being very good options for both PvP and PvM.

There’s close to nothing that can reduce or block magic attacks, so Counterspell is extremely valuable as a defensive buff in PvM.


For Bokor, it's not like you particularly need too much aoe to function in PvM though, you know o.o? Focusing in single-target would only mean the build's more boss-oriented, which is perfectly fine and has many uses. Zombies aren't good, but nor does Bokor need them at all to be good.

If aoe is such a big problem, though, something like Cler2>Krivis2>Bokor2>Kabbalist is perfectly fine. Krivis2 covers for the lack of aoe well. (Bokor3’s currently considered bad in comparison to Bokor2 though, because what it does add is zombie-reliant, and zombies are pretty messy atm.)