Cata 3 choices (PVP) - Dragoon or Lancer - Futureproof progression

[GoldenCross]

They got the knockdown attribute already

[gr.housephd]

30% chance to KD only works with basic attacks. Can’t use that with Rush.

[Jabba]

I still don t see why is this a debate… it is very clear what is the choices.
Lancer > PvP
Dragoon > PvE

Lancer is made to go with Cata3.

Dragoon is made to go with Spear build.

Also no restrain > no pvp.

Debate over

[fatedhour]

It is definately a debate…

on kToS, most sw3 -> cata 3-> drg went into drg2.

And drg2 is the meta for PvP last I heard on kToS.

TBH I still go by my analogy of dragoon2 being like fletcher or wiz3 ele 3 WL while lancer is like cryo 3. One is all about DPS, one is all about utility. Yet, they are both good for PvP.

[kyokahn]

I still don’t see the link between Restrain 10 and Lancer-specific skills in general. Any SW3 Cata 3 can be “annoyers” with restrain + rush. You highlight a lot of strengths with Lancer, such as block pen, knockdown etc. but those are lancer’s strengths. Knockdown + stun is kinda pointless, since if both proc then it’s a waste of that 1 sec stun.

The link is in the play style and purpose of the build, not in obvious synergy.

Neither the KD or the Stun are 100%, so if both happen at the same time call it a bonus lol.

@fhonghwong 33seconds is still pretty decent. Clear a few initial circles then do some annoying stuff and clear their second wave of circles afterwards too.

[ZeroFoxGiven]

A Lancer’s job is not DPS. The Lancer’s job is to disrupt and disable mages and clerics. To force the enemy team to prioritize and deal with you, leaving your team to do their thing.

Super agree with this.

As the title of a thread someone has started before, Lancer is simply a version 2.0 of Cata3. Better initiation/CC and survival skills.

Being able to kill is simply a bonus since the ones that usually die fast from rush are very low CON and/or low evasion enemies.

I’d definitely love to see 3x kills in 1 hit 3 or 4 seconds into the match though. That’s approx the time it takes to get in dethrone range from the opponents trying to get their ausrine or setting their zoning spells. But this would definitely be an isolated case.

That might be the time Kabalists would insta-cast their R7F first as soon as the 3s countdown starts. The Goon2 can counter-counter this though if there’s a Diev3 on the team for Ausrine or Priest3 for Revive.

My main complaint about lancer is not being able to use 1h spears.

I’m always hoping they’d change the skills to include 1H spears, especially with the nice new shields that’s going to be added soon.

Knockdown + stun is kinda pointless, since if both proc then it’s a waste of that 1 sec stun.

If one doesn’t proc (mostly KD since it’s just 30% if I remember it right), the other (Restrain) likely would. Also, Restrain works on skills.

The KD attribute for normal attack is nice to have especially when removing R7F from enemies. Sets you up for a nice combo.

The biggest thing for lancer is crushing magic circle. The silence is a bonus.

^ THIS. I’ve been in a lot of instances where I wish someone in my team had a skill to clear the enemies’ zone setup. You can’t go in because you get silenced or CC’ed. You can’t near because you get kited or CC’ed. Joust solves this.

As what @kyokahn said, even with the long CD, it should be enough considering you just wiped a lot of what the enemy team has set up or used which made their skills go on CD as well.

[danielnito007]

I’d go Lancer, no doubt about it. Cata and Lancer are all about PvP.

[DieHardLancer]

dragoon isn’t a pvp class.
lancer is so much better and the synergy with restrain is amazing because lancer got an attribute that gives 30% knockdown chance from basic attacks
not to mention dragoon isn’t a pvp class. it’s damaging skills from dragoon c1 are nice to have, but its definitely not my main pvp choice.
at rank 8, going dragoon will give you 1 more skill, going lancer will give you 5 new skills that every single 1 of them will be for pvp
and also, its already been said that there wont be new class releases at rank 9-10, only hidden classes and class advancements.
And there is a chance that the rank 10 class won’t even have synergy with a cataphract (like shinobi) which is why i would go lancer. Don’t take that risk.

[GoldenCross]

It is definately a debate…

on kToS, most sw3 -> cata 3-> drg went into drg2.

And drg2 is the meta for PvP last I heard on kToS.

This. Don’t know what the hype is about Lancer in iTOS but this is the situation in KTOS.

[DieHardLancer]

This. Don’t know what the hype is about Lancer in iTOS but this is the situation in KTOS.

block penetration buff and block debuff, 30% knockdown chance attribute a skill that break magic circles a dismount and 2 CC skills.
no idea whats the hype indeed.
dragoon c2 cannot beat that, no matter which build he goes
a lancer can dismount a dragoon c2 with cata.
And don’t forget that a cata lancer can simply run out of dethrone with trot.

[GoldenCross]

2 bursts to insta-kill targets across the screen > all that noise.
TBL is not 1v1 against lancer, being able to nail clerics / wizards is a godsend

[jynxie10]

Go dragoon 3 dude I assure thats very powerful tree for PVP/PVE. Dont waste a rank 7 class that would bottleneck you in the future. Imagine a long range Dark Theurg (pre rhevisan), thats what dethrone is. Shenaningans are nothing if youre dead.

[DieHardLancer]

TBL is not 1v1 against lancer, being able to nail clerics / wizards is a godsend

GL beating warlocks with the dark shield and the ice shield, lancer’s utility is better.

[Dogma]

As what @kyokahn said, even with the long CD, it should be enough considering you just wiped a lot of what the enemy team has set up or used which made their skills go on CD as well.

^THIS x 100. As a lancer, you have one(1) skill on CD on one team member while the opposing team will have a multiple skills on CD on multiple players especially if they were going turtle with area denial skills.

Unless they change it, there is no limit to the number of spells/circles destroyed by a single Joust.

Just the idea of annoying the shhit out of those squishy motherfuckers and their ■■■■■■■ magic circles should make any swordsman happy, considering the crappy hand we have been dealt with since beta.

[danielnito007]

With new items coming up, 1 shot might not be as common as they are now.

[ZeroFoxGiven]

A video that might give additional info about that Goon2 can potentially do:

I’m still on the lookout for more Lancer vids.

[VIDEO] Lancer Skills Test & PVP

Skills Test 1v1 PVP - Lancer vs Inquisitor 1v1 PVP - Lancer vs Druid 5v5 TBL It's a recording of a Murmillo player but you can also see the Lancer in action in the background and during spectate mode.

---

I think Goon2 and Lancer are both good options. They just have differences which may or may not be the player’s preference.

PVE aside, here are my current thoughts (PVP-wise, and if you already have Cata3Goon1) as to why we should go with one or the other:

###Go Goon2 if:

• You like to play as the carry or damage dealer. You like reaping kills. You don’t want to rely on others in terms of damage.

• You have Pelt in your build so you can still use a 1H spear + shield for all your skills if the situation demands for a defensive play. Having Hoplite will also boost your block further with Finestra.

• You secretly hate dealing with Archers and other CataGoons on the enemy team.

• Goon costume is just badass. (Though I personally still prefer to use my Cata costume - also, to mislead the enemy)

###Go Lancer if:

• You’re more of a party player. You want to support your team, and disrupt the enemy team. You like setting up easier kills for your teammates (e.g. using Impale for takeout meals, using KDs to cancel an enemy’s channeling skill, using Rush w/ Ausrine or Revive to remove R7F buff from all members of the enemy team, etc.). You hate watching your teammates die because there was nothing you could do except run away as you might be immediately next (because your skills are either on CD or there’s none that you can use at the moment to counter the situation).

• You’re really not into the existing Goon1 skills that you have. They’re not your “style”. You feel like you’re just forced into using them because there’s not a lot of other skills you can use to fill the downtime of your Cata skills.

• You like initiating fights instead of staying behind the lines and waiting for your teammates to drop some of the enemy team members, or wait out for the enemy team’s buffs to wear off or get removed by your teammates.

• You secretly hate dealing with Wizards and Clerics on the enemy team.

• You think Lancer costume is more badass (I do! though it’d probably make me look a bit chubby).

There could be other reasons, but that’s just what’s in my head at the moment.

I’m still undecided at this point though so more info and vids are always appreciated.

[danielnito007]

You secretly hate dealing with Archers

Why is that? Going high STR, low DEX?

[ZeroFoxGiven]

That’s one.

Also, Fletcher Broadheads, sneaky well-attributed Wugus, high-evasion builds.

No need to close in on them anymore with Goon2.

[fhonghwong]

for dragoon2 to hit archer, they would need high dex though… and if they can hit archer, i doubt they have trouble killing them without dethrone…

so that would be a weird hate.

I openly hate wizard and cleric though.

personally i think low con cata should go dragoon2, while con focused cata should go lancer.

[ZeroFoxGiven]

for dragoon2 to hit archer, they would need high dex though… and if they can hit archer, i doubt they have trouble killing them without dethrone…

Makes sense. There’d be situations though where you just can’t close in without risking getting CC’ed or killed e.g. if enemy team has good composition that allows them to turtle/zone well.

I’ve died a few times before even reaching this specific archer in TBL, usually when my Rush is on CD (and when staying away, waiting it out is not an option either).

Also, most Archers have low HP.