Tree of Savior Forum

Can Staff please comment on plans for PVP?

In terms of balance, this is the core of the issue. You’re never going to have a fun system when the basic framework is, “Get OP gear or get one shot.”

Normalization of attack and defense or otherwise establishing a baseline for offensive and defensive values is the best way to ensure good matchmaking and keep new players from getting frustrated with the system. Ideally, you could do it by base class. Wizards, Clerics, Swordsmen, and Archers would each have a base set of stats in PvP zones (Be they TBL or GvG). Then maybe take a small percentage of their gear stats (Let’s say 1% per every 100 points of ATK and Def), and add it to a player’s baseline. That way no one is punished for investing time and resources into their gear but they also won’t be able to dominate a match.

As far as timing, we definitely need a 24-hour PvP mode. Making the matches exhibitions save for set times is fine. If people want rewards (Which, IMO, should be purely cosmetic or otherwise unrelated to character development), they can log in to do TBL. Some adjustment to line up with peak hours would also be ideal. As Remiri said, prime time on the East Coast doesn’t match up with the current schedule.

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This is where i disagree.

  1. There is no such thing as in taking no damage at all regardless of/due to what ++ armor you are wearing. This is a situation where you are either encountered a skilled player who utilizes the available skill combinations efficiently to work out a good defense/offense PVP character. Rodelero has slithering skills that can completly evade opponent magic, while clerics has beak mask to completely block status ailment attacks. This concept of “power creep” that takes no damage (0) at all, sounds extremely too exaggerated to be included in this discussion.
  2. It is unfortunate that you got one shot in PVP. But let’s provide a full overview in stead of cherry picking moments:
    i. Have you worked on preparing on transcended armor to +10 like any other hardcore pvp players have been grinding daily to achieved?
    ii. Your builds. Full con? 0 con full str with only 40k HP?
    iii. Are you under any status ailment effect when being one shotted?
    You can’t be stepping into a competitive arena, where all players are playing the game competitively, with non transcended armor, un-strategic stats allocation with low hp and blame it all on “Power Creep”. Now even if you are wearing fully transcended armor and full con with 170k+ HP, there are also class skills that either break your armor, or skills like shrink or joint penalty skills that amplifies the poison properties of Feather Foot skills and others. Do you think the current No. 1 TBL players in your server is immortal never died once in all the matches he played in?

These are combinations that other players have spent time researching, testing themselves in game and work out diligently to defeat you in stead of just blaming it all on “power creep”. Please do not penalize current players for playing the game deligently.

Let’s be clear that I disagree again not for the sake of disagreeing, but please reread this. What do you mean there is no way to grind them because they don’t exist? Diamond anvils are tradable in the market. And, they are plenty players like myself who are playing the game the legit way to gather silvers and buy diamond anvil to upgrade our gears. I have seen people who made +22 weapons even without diamond anvil, despite more attempt and base weapon are required. You have the same access to events, daily silver or farming content as anyone of us.

Like you, i have fought those strong players with great armors and weapons. Even when losing, I don’t put all blame to this so called “power creep” excuse. PVP is a competitive arena where there will be always player who plays it much better than us. Some blamed it on “power creep”, just just wake up the next day find better ways to beat counter their opponent.

If you have played the game as much you claimed you have, then you should know that cosmetic/fashion is without doubt a valuable commodity in any MMORPG. If you think a “simple” cosmetic or QoL items would not trigger match staging, then i respect your view on it. I can only pray this idealist idea of introducing better rewards in TBL, doesn’t backfires when players are playing and planning the PVP matches “creatively” purely for rewards.

You may also claim the rewards you referring to is on the daily participation. I have seen so many matches when TBL starts, your teamates don’t move at all. But this ended up, they just click TBL for daily participation and has no intention to fight the match at all. TBL should be a place for people to polish and practice their PVP openly without the presence of carrots after the race.

Recommendation:

  1. Perhaps to consider placing the statue in more prominent places with more indicator these are the TBL winners. Right now it feels like some statue hidden in some bushes like some winners from fishing competition. Nothing about it indicates TBL winners.
  2. Have a better interface for players to join and watch the TBL like a tournament scene. (Numbers of viewers rate shown etc). Right now it feels like we are playing TBL in an empty stadium and no one is TOS even knew players are engaging creatively in TBL.
  3. Please do not introduce more rewards for TBL. This will either promotes match staging, or afk PVPers who join just for daily rewards. In stead please focus on giving creative PVPers the recognition and tournament atmosphere they been looking for.
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Add on feedbacks
Power Creep - resolved by gear normalization
(I find this demotivating as it will totally ruined most player’s past and current effort in farming for better gears just for PVP purposes, and reduce the incentive/drive for of existing PVP players to spend time/resources in farming/enhancing weapons and gears cater for PVP purposes )

Incentive for play - offer meaningful rewards instead of a once a day box with joke rewards.
(Appreciate you too be civilized and refrain from keep calling current IMC work as a joke)

Encourage Team Play - allow players to queue as a party for TBL _
(Please don’t. This disadvantage new players without party and does not serve to the cause or promoting single new players to join TBL. Recommend to maintain current random matchmaking individually to avoid match staging)

Times are bad - move 4-6pm to 7-9pm
(Some players in TOS have work in Real Life. 7.00pm time frame is too rush for those finishing work and dinner just to meet this time schedule. And ending at 12pm is at times promote people to sleep late just to play TOS unhealthily. Would like to recommend 9.00-11.00pm)

(The current match making based on points does serve it’s purpose. However there are cases where top players who are leading are not able to get matches even after 1 hours of waiting time. Recommend to increase the match making point range so that leading players, or lower ranked players don’t get pushed to wait for 2 hours with no match just because no one in their rank level are playing.)

1.) Yes NO damage is an exaggeration, it has not reached that point yet but the current meta is trending back in that direction, which you are either straight up killing someone or barely touching them.

2.) If you are still PVPing in this game it is reasonable to expect your gear is decent otherwise you would have quit long ago - but I will humor you.

  • been playing since beta
  • My Reti2 has a full set of 350 primus/solmiki, all upgrade to +11 and stage 10 transcendence. Weapon is +16 primus 350 stage10 - defense and mdef are both over 20,000
  • Builds are either heavy CON or full CON.
  • No. There are players that can slap me down from 100% to 0% with 1-2 Dimension Compressions with no other debuffs in effect. That is just one example.
    Does this pass your purity test to comment on the state of PVP in this game?

How do you get Diamond Anvils currently? The point is there is no way to catch up to players that spammed Leticias for Diamonds or got them via the MP, since they do not exist anymore. This is a temporary problem since as the game progresses and as long as Diamond Anvils don’t come back, we will be fine.

To be clear - I am not placing ALL the blame on anything, I am proposing changes to the PVP system that will make the game more enjoyable by the majority of the playerbase, instead of the minority.

I DO think it will trigger match staging more often if there are simple rewards - right now there is just a daily box with some attribute points and maybe an enchant scroll, hell I don’t even collect them anymore I just PVP for fun.

3 Likes

You seem to be arguing in favor of the current meta, which is fine provided you’re not interested in making PvP more accessible to a wider portion of the player base.

I’m curious as to your opinion regarding my earlier suggestion (Which is basically taken from the overhaul Blizzard did to WoW’s PvP at the beginning of the game’s last expansion).

So no new players or casuals can pvp. Nice

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Yeah this logic always confused me - they don’t want gear normalized because of all the effort they put into their gear, but they put effort into their gear just so they could be competitive in pvp…if gear was kept normalized from the get go they would have still got gear for gemstone and upcoming GTW.

People who have pvp’d until now have the largest benefit which is experience, they know the game in and out and will still beat inexperienced players.

PVP should always be more about your ability as a player and not the time soaked into your gear.

7 Likes

You need t10 endgame +40 armor and weapon, 5000 CON, 9999 hours in tos, 500 matches in Gem feud played, to be allowed to access and comment on TBL.

Normalised gear will make balancing easier, and pvp as a general more accessible. Otherwise its gonna be the same 6 people if they can even muster enough people for 1 match every week on the rankings.

9 Likes

Fix Blindfaith/Smash bullet no damage reduction(True Damage)
Druid Telepath anyone can damage(include teammates,the skill should make the target be your teammate
Retiarius Reflect 100% missile damage is stupid/Blandir cadena remove knock down of this ■■■■/remove silence from pull rete
Sage dimension compression stupid range
Magnetic force no counter play/no way to escape instead anti debuffs from oracle/pd
Earthquake 3 charges/10 sec in the air
Psicokino don’t have any delay on teleportation,low cd
nerf on subzero shield did not come to itos(impossible to any sword hit wizards,this skills simply delete all swordman tree

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Kino’s teleportation delay is after the teleport, before that the delay was so stupid that people could get you before you use the skill (I would prefer jump around than use the skill to scape), they should remove the delay from Blink too like they did to teleportation.
I think the nerf from subzero is already applied, you still get freezed but the reflected damage isn’t 100% damage received so you wont get killed by attacking someone with subzero shield like before.

Onmyoji skill are TOO large for the TBL map,. is ridiculous -_-

Agreed. I posted quite a bit in my last few GTW threads which were more targeted for general PVP balance, but I think you should perhaps do a survey and not just a forum thread to encourage PVP feedback. I say this because there are many specific opinions, and threads will very easily get derailed with back and forth on how people agree (or disagree, usually) on what changes to make and what to prioritize. As you can see that’s already started happening here.
:tired:

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Some people may argue that standardized gear demotivates the players that dedicated hundred hours of gameplay on their PvP gear, but unless IMC changed their idea, it would work like this:

Not considered in PvP:

  • Enhancement level
  • Transcendence level

Considered in PvP:

  • Base values (yay for players with Velcoffer set)
  • Set effects (like Mergaite, Kraujas, Gyvenimas and Solmiki)
  • Sub-stats (yay for players with Ichor’d Velcoffer set)
  • Awakening effects
  • Enchant jewel effects

If you think a bit, you’ll understand what my point is.

9 Likes

Hello, I’ve got some suggestion I have thought for quite sometime, played since beta too.

For pvp:

Normilize gear stats BUT effects should be kept, this could lead to interesting gear choices such as using durandal for a build, or the bokor hammer that hits hard with bokor skills? who knows.

An alternative to this could be a pvp gear earned from pvping and with an enchantment cap and trans, which in the end is the same as now but with capped stats so all players can have the same with some work.

Balance the CC of some classe, (I’m retiarius feels just too strong and is my most loved class in any game I have played and trust me I have played ALOT). My target classes would be retiarius, sage, psychokino, corsair(mayb not). Not sure what else this patch.

Make stats such as str and dex more meaningful to invest to instead of con, same for casters’ Int
so con can’t be the core of every pvp stat build, mayb make some bonues of dmg% every few points in stats?
or mayb have a block chance cap of 30% max vs X block pen value, same for evasion to be fair but 40% since it doesn’t add HP.

For class balances, I’ve been feeling for ages that swordmen tree lacks ALOT compared to other low tier classes with the esception of peltasta now which i think went in the right direction but it means peltasta is just too good compared to any other choice.

Highlander: the two handed sword block should be an attribute for weapon C block just like peltasta’s C shield, I’ve always imagine Cartar Stroke as a long range sonic wave that shatters the floor till it’s target and mayb knocks them down (or just let me feel ALOT of power after casting it for so long), wagon wheel could use better range to justify adding points on it for pvp.

Swordman: Gungho could be the offensive version of peltasta’s guardian, mayb 10% or 20% or w/e % you see balanced in attack buff and a c3 attribute that gives it addional % dmg like guardians defense reduction, concentration AS THE NAME says lets you hit your target without missing regardless the evasion, cooldown increases when this attribute is used, mayb every few hits with conc procs a bigger hit and this hit scales with dex, Thrust could be an auto attack alternative that has HIGH chance of proccing twice in one hit, restrain could be a stacking debuff that slows you with each stack, reaching max stacks stuns you for 4 seconds or something and this effect has 30 second cd on the target that receives it, pommel beat could use a change not sure what to say about it haha.

Barbarian: Warcry should give a better utility, mayb give the buff to the party too when is used (you know… A WARCRY) should lower the defense for alot highter than 10%, mayb 20? 30?, Embowel: Dash to a location, if you hit an enemy you stun him for a brief duration then knock him back, if the knocked back enemy hits a wall he gets an additional stun, if it hits an enemy, both enemies will be knocked back, stomp kick should be able to be casted from the floor: the character jumps instantly a few meters in fron to stun whoever gets hit in the fall (mayb snare), Seism: Hit the floor once to hit the floor, if you stop hitting the button you will cancel the skill, repeated tab will result in dmg and mini knockups, ending in a massive knockup in the end, the mini knockups could also slow? not sure if too much.

Hoplite: spear throw could use an animation speed up, change the evasion attribute for stab from evasion to block, change the int attribute from finestra from int to STR (PLEASE).

Rodelero: most of the animations lock you for too long, that it for this one.

Squire: arrest never worked on bosses even though it says it should,
just by doing this you could see potential tank builds with this class in my opinion.

Doppelsoeldner: just make deeds of valor a more significant buff to use, right now is pointless to even put points on it in my opinion.

Shinobi: As the name says this class should be a very agile, mobile and swifty class, right now though it is a pretty static class, just stand there and cast for 5 seconds your clones and spam your skills, give it more mobility, make bushin no jutsu a lvl 1 skill just like murmillo and tone it down a bit or something (but make it instant please, keep it a fast gameplay class) make the jutsus faster animations, katon and mijin lock you up for so long, mokuton has the weirdest animation i have ever seen and never hits(please add a log in the animation?) and this one is just cuz i’m such a weeb: GIVE ME EXPLOSIVE KUNAIS ATTRIBUTES, thanks :smile:

Murmillo: VERY LOOOOOOOONG animations, that’s about it for this class, i really love murmillo but the animations make is so unfun for me i don’t play it anymore.

Lancer: this class is strong but the hit boxes aside from r10 skill are so small (IT HAS A HUGE LANCE COME ON!). This one is not a rework but, a visual on the skills would be nice, the skill animations are very dull.

Nak muay: give it some attributes, please, or mayb a combo system that stacks up your dmg like frenzy.

Thanks to whoever read till the end, if you liked my comment ill comment on other trees as well!

4 Likes

Agree on all points minus Lancer - Lancer is in a good place at the moment and they have plenty of mobility so the range isn’t much of an issue.

2 Likes

IMC can just put standardized gear on TBL and leave other pvp’s whitoud it.
Koreans hate standardized gear, trust me.

For me the main point is just Block.
Block is way to op.

And Sw/arc tree need something against all the CCs.

Cap blockrate on a maximum rate lets say 50% is the highest possible blockrate.
Since you cant block with 2h weapons give them a high bonus Block pen.
How can a physical weak wiz/Cleric Block a gigantic 2-h sword/mace easy with 1 hand? wtf

And why the hell can we get 3 gems for blockrate but only 1 for block pen?

Another thing is Ar/sw tree are very limited in build options with all the weapon restrictions.
Wiz dont have that and can get everything in one build …

4 Likes

Great point. This means that if there are 2 people in PVP

  • one is 100% block
  • other is 100% block pen

All other factors aside, the one stacking block will always come out on top of the one stacking block pen because of 3 blue gems in their shield, and the other only gets 1 yellow gem in their gloves.

Also, the one stacking block is max CON so they get full HP, whereas the one stacking block pen is max DEX so they get…crit attack (the most useless stat in the game by a large margin)

The disparity is clear.

2 Likes

This is why I suggested including gear stats but at a significantly reduced rate. Currently, 100% of your enhancement and Transcendence values apply in PvP. There’s just no way to balance that when players can enhance their gear into infinity.

Pairing that value down to something like 1% for every 1000 points of a particular stat (I know I said 100 in my original comment) would still give players credit for maxing out their gear without locking more casual players out of PvP altogether.

Doesn’t look like we’ll get a unique thread so I guess I’ll just post my suggestions here.

1.) Normalized gear to a point. There should be a reward for gearing your character and spending time to do so. The problem is, many of the upgrades to gear simply scale too well with damage.

2.) Damage immunities vs. the one shot game. PVP right now is literally “you are immune to damage, all CCs, or you are dead.” Duration reduction to these skills can help, but things like hit limits would help more. This is one of the biggest issues in PVP in all of its forms.

3.) Diminishing Returns favor some classes over others. Classes like hunter suffer too much when all their skills share the same DR even within that one class–whereas other classes suffer little to not at all.

4.) Con scales too well compared to other stats, because damage is so heavily reliant on weapon. This makes the block meta too strong outside the small number of classes which can automatically gain block pen or ignore block completely (lancer/musketeer come to mind). Block as a whole needs to be rebalanced and reconsidered. And, odd nitpick but pdef and mdef have odd scaling as far as things like awakenings, regular gems, and headgear enchants go. Certain stat gems were never reworked after the combat changes, leaving many of these options the absolutely wrong choice in all cases.

5.) Odd imbalances between skills that do the same thing. For example, methadone still has tons of drawbacks despite being a circle 9 skill, whereas other classes get the same utility with no drawback.

6.) Extremely unique utility locked behind a single class. Disenchant is the worst offender of this, being absolutely unique, interesting, and a great way to counter many of the other buff issues this game has, yet no other class in the game has something even close. I’m not saying that every class, particularly high damage classes, needs a high level of utility to perform. But if you are a damage class, and have no way to deal damage 99% of the time, PVP is not fun 99% of the time.

7.) Consistency of PVP rules across all PVP formats. TBL, GTW, and Gemstone Feud should all follow the same rules.

8.) Break addons that give an advantage. Like radar, which allows you to see cloaked targets.

9.) Allow bigger zoom range for all PVP types, not just GTW.

10.) Do a separate rank bracket for TBL (or even Gemstone Feud) that allows for pre-made groups, rather than randomized ones. Foster a meta, which allows you to make smarter balance changes long-term, rather than trying to fix balance based around how something is broken in PVE content.

11.) Encourage PVP with better rewards. Not necessarily TP–but you just added those new Popo Points and other things which don’t break the economy and encourage cheating. 11a.) Actually ban people who cheat.

12.) General bug fixes, as others have mentioned. Certain skills do not have PVP damage reduction such as smash bullet.

13.) Fix the ranking system and limit the amount of games played weekly that count toward ranking. This is one of the most important, but the current system rewards participation over success (and the times are still not primetime on Klaipeda), so if you cannot participate every single day for at least an hour or two, you have no chance of ranking even if you win every game.

Most other MMOs with arena-based PVP take, let’s say, the first 10 games you do in a week. You can continue to participate after that, but your MMR won’t change anymore after those 10 games. You could also implement this but with additional features. Let’s say the first 10 games count the most, but every game after that rewards half as much MMR. After 20 games, every game rewards almost no points.

And most importantly, a feature of MMR is that if you are at the bottom, and you beat someone at the top, you get far more points than if you beat someone at your level–and the inverse is also true if you are at the top and lose to someone far below you. You should lose far more points. This currently does not happen in TOS, but would be a serious improvement.

14.) Punish players who disconnect from matches, either by preventing them from queuing again, or cause them to take a hit to their ranking.

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