I am Pelt Barb3 doppel1. and level 217 and soon will be able to take last circle.
I learned swords doesn’t deal much damage, and I feel doppel1 is enough and the next circle doesn’t give me anything usefull.
so I thought about taking dragoon for last circle…
then I will have ability to use spear and 2h spear, and accses to pierce damage skills.
what do you think ?
it’s doppel circle2 vs. dragoon
Doppelsoeldner circle 2 is a vastly better choice here. You don’t even have any classes that focus on Spears currently. If you throw Dragoon into your last circle, you are going to massively lower your damage. This is only going to be further worsened by the buffs to Barbarian that we ideally will be seeing soon.
like @Vanic said.
if you want to go Dragoon, you should have the earlier ranks that support it.
now obviously, there’s nothing outright blocking you from taking it… but it will just be sub-optimal.
additionally… there’s still lots of new possibilities that will be introduced with later ranks. we don’t know what Rank 8 and 9 (and possibly more?) will add to the game for certain. maybe swords will make a comeback.
if you want to make a spear character, it will be much more effective with a solid foundation, and being built for spear from the start.
I’m not making a build like this but just out of curiosity would it really be that bad? True, you don’t have spear lunge or finestra from hoplite, but he’s already barb3/doppel1 I don’t see what is so much better about doppel2. He gets more damage from deeds and some 2h sword skills, but it’s not like he’s already locked into 2h swords–barb skills will work with 2h spear as well.
Dragoon gets him good pierce damage abilities and big game hunter as there would be no downside for him to use 2h spears exclusively. I’ve also heard the 2h spear options at high levels are better than 2h swords but I don’t know if that’s true.
The question isn’t what’s better for dragoon, hoplite most assuredly is, but rather do the doppel2 skills really outperform dragoon if you don’t have hoplite? In other words, is dragoon useless if you don’t have spear lunge?
Edit: I considered Vanic’s post again and if I remember correctly one of those barb changes is going to be a 50% slash buff. If that’s the case then I absolutely agree because that will be huge for doppel2 and offer little for dragoon. Otherwise I don’t see too much of a power disparity.
spear lunge buff is not enough of reason to take hoplite …
even finestra will really fall off at my level range 200+ …
the barbarian buff will give me overall more damage…
for more uptime…
spear lunge 6sec duration(24c), vs. cleave(kr patch) 5sec(25cd) duration.
and.
Finestra(150crit), some blockrate(onlyusing shield) vs. warcry frenzy( 500atk+? )
not only that, hoplite give you already option to use spear, so taking another class that give you option to use spear would be like ? overwriting attribute ?
focusing and spears alone, or swords alone will overall limit me …
well… if I take doppel… I get whirlwind lv10, and deeds of valor to 10 ?.. I think 5 is enough for deeds.
and probbly also 5 whirlwind is enough already.
the other doppel skills, are a joke…
now some more question to add up… is using spear with slash skill will effect the slash damage ?
so far from what i understand from you;
Doppel - more damage, focused 2handed sword.
Dragoon - less damage, able to use any weapon, and use all skills 1h and 2h for all skills. cool costume. party buff (?) gae bulg.
pierce skill addition(more damage overall since slash is bad)
and I really care less about damage, or dealing damange more then others. I want to tank, but since there 0 tank options. rodelero/peltasta is bad. peltasta one is enough.
I am playing as a tank and semi damage dealer.
so I care more about the costume, party play, and soaking damage.
that leave me with open circles up to 7…
( I hate fencer, not brutal enough )
I don*t understand why people say that Finestra falls of later.
It is 150 crit and increases AoE Attack Ratio by 3.
That is like saying 150 dex are useless later…
And spear lunge buffs all Dragoon skills and cleave does not help Dragoon in anyway.
If you take Doppel you get Zucken and Redel that both get buffed by cleave.
Whirlwind is at the moment the strongest aoe we have as swordsman.
So increasing it to level 10 is huge buff for it.
this may or may not be true.
each skill is individually limited by which weapons it requires.
eg, in Peltasta, Umbo Blow and Rim Blow both require a 1h weapon and shield. Swash Buckling can have a shield or a dagger in the offhand. but none of them can be used with a 2handed weapon.
if none of your skills actually have weapon restrictions, then this won’t be relevant.
I don’t get the point of your reply… barbarian skills are all universal…
I think it’s ok to do Doppel > Dragoon… as many people do it anyway…
so it’s just hoplite vs barbarian here.
I personally think doppel c2 is really bad, the skills are not amazing and bring 0 utility…
Hmm here’s some calculation that I did when I was thinking whether I should take Doppel C2 or Doppel > Dragoon. Please do correct me if I am wrong. I am calculating based on skills damage and a fixed assumption of physical attack value.
Given if the build is high str build with about…200 str let’s say and with a good weapon you would have 800 physical attack let’s say
800 physical attack + Deed of valor level 5 buff = 1200 physical attack
Cyclone’s damage at level 5
(1200 + 844) * 3 hit/sec * 4 second * 2 over heat * 1.2 (level 20 attributes let’s say since it’s affordable?) = 58 867 damage without critical, 88 300 damage with critical but this is highly unlike since this means you got critical on every hit XD
Dragoon 3 skills (Dragontooth + Serpentine + Gae Bulg) combined at level 5 for each skill and Deed of Valor Level 5 buff.
Dragontooth: (1200+ 714) * 5 hits * 1.2 (level 20 attributes let’s say since it’s affordable?) = 11 484 without critical, 17 226 with critical
Serpentine: (1200 + 926) * 4 hits * 1.2 (level 20 attributes let’s say since it’s affordable?) = 10 204 without critical, 15 307 with critical
Gae Bulg = (1200+ 3812) * 1.2 (level 20 attributes let’s say since it’s affordable?) = 6 014 without critical, 9 021 with critical
Given Dragoon’s skill has shorter cooldown then Cyclone, let’s say within 50-60 seconds duration:
Dragontooth has 17 seconds cooldown and Serpentine has 20 seconds cooldown, meaning both can be used 3 times within 60 seconds duration. Gae Bulg has 30 seconds cooldown so 2 times within 60 seconds duration.
3 x Dragontooth + 3 x Serpentine + 2 x Gae Bulg =
(3 * 11 484) + (3 * 10 204) + (2 * 6 014) = 77 092 without critical, 115 638 with critical
So total damage from skills for Doppel > Dragoon would be
58 867 + 77 092 = 135 959 without critical, 203 938 with critical
Seems pretty good with Doppel > Dragoon. Given Hoplite 2 or 3 build, you have higher chance to critical, less dependent on 1 skill alone and has more skill rotation.
Just to see if I calculate correctly, let me see how Doppel > Dragoon compares against Doppel C2.
800 physical attack + Deed of valor level 10 buff = 1600 physical attack
Cyclone level 10
(1600 + 1355) * 3 hit/sec * 5 second * 2 over heat * 1.2 (level 20 attributes let’s say since it’s affordable?) = 106 380 damage without critical, 159 570 with critical
Redel
(1600 + 732) * 5 hits * 1.2 (level 20 attributes let’s say since it’s affordable?) = 13 992 without critical, 20 988 with critical
Zucken
(1600 + 860) * 4 hits * 1.2 (level 20 attributes let’s say since it’s affordable?) = 11 808 without critical, 17 712 with critical
Redel has 25 seconds cooldown so 2 times and Zucken has 20 seconds cooldown so 3 times within 60 seconds duration. Cyclone has 45 seconds cooldown so 1 time within 60 seconds duration.
(2 x Redel) + (3 x Zucken) + (1 x Cyclone) =
(2 x 13 992) + (3 x 11 808) + 106 380 = 169 788 without critical, 254 682 with critical
For Doppel…it relies heavily on the notion that Cyclone managed to deal damage for full duration. Else the damage falls off hard when you are spinning and got CC-ed by stun, freeze and etc. Also taking Doppel C2 limits the weapon you can use since you are pretty much stuck with 2 Handed Sword. But getting level 8 Deed of Valor seems to gives 100% up time with no need to re-stack again (need to double confirm).
Ok so from what you said in short this is what I understand
Doppel will deal more damage overall on paper, but have the problem of limited to 2handed swords… they give pretty high atk too.
Dragoon less damage, more weapon option, shorter cooldowns.
I still don’t know what is better… to tell the truth, I am more interested in dragoon, for the ability to use 1handed spear, and 2handed spear, and the costume.
I am more focused into the role of tank, and care less about dealing more damage. so I want more utility in my choice…
So when I compared Doppel C2 against DoppelDragoon this is what I saw :
Dragoon - Bleeding (Serpentine), Knockup (Dragon Soar work?) ,
Weak to physical for 7.5sec + 15sec Zone that increase MDEF, PDEF and ATK, MATK. (Gae Bulg). + Ability to use spears.
DoppelC2 - More DMG / ASPD (Deeds of Valor) , Shock Status (Zornhau), double earn pay ?
So is it safe for me to take dragoon ? I prefer it more, but since Doppel2 is the normal choice, I want to be sure i’m not ruining a character.
I would say go for your own choice as long as you like it. I see no problem taking Dragoon either. But considering IF and ONLY IF the buff of +50% slash damage from Cleave ever come to iTOS, it definitely impacts a lot to the build since Dragoon’s skill is more to pierce.
So far Dragon Soar’s knock up doesn’t seem to be working properly. Gae Bulg’s zone works though but not sure how good it is.
I was having the same dilemma too cause I don’t like the idea of just using 1 weapon 
Some more Doppel’s costume is ugly compared to Dragoon. But comparing their skills’ damage on paper, Doppel’s seems able to deal more damage and considering if they ever release Rank 8, Doppel C3 gets 150% Physical attack boost from Deed of Valor?
for C3 doppel, would 100% of defense leave you 0, what will happen on 150% ? lol.
I agree on doppel2 will have more damage… but that still leave you lower damage then other classes.
so i think it’s better to bring in some utility to the table.
mostly i end up being the tank in party, i barely even have time to damage, most likely can burn all my rotation with pain barrier, and thats about it.
and since other class have better damage, and better uptime.
and since a full tank is not a viable thing, or not really worth it.
I went for utility tank ? with just pelt1.
(i think hoplite was better option for next, but I already had barbarian)
so I think I will go for dragoon, it has more tools other then damage.
Here is the set of skills I had in mind :
now a question out of nowhere ! what do you think of shinobi for the last circle ?
thank you for the information.
Consider shinobi too.
IMO, you should only take Doppel C2, if you were planning to use 2h sword from the start and took Highlander instead of Pelt (for that 50% crit dmg passive buff for 2h swords)
If you were really set to do tanking and doing semi DPS, hoplite would’ve been the better choice for you rather than Barb. Shinobi is for DPS I believe, and I’ve been hearing from some that using Bunshin No Jutsu actually makes you squishy, and you wouldn’t want to be like that if you are tanking.
This topic shows me again how bad swordsmen are…
i didnt plan to use 2h swords, becouse barbarian use universal skills. thats why i picked it… and I have peltasta, no point to mention highlander.
I already typed that I realised hoplite would have been that better choice for that, but already am barb. and not going to remake, i am 220 right now…
That’s why I said if you would be taking Doppel C2, 'cause it specializes in 2h sword. Dragoon would be the better choice for you if you’re not using 2h sword, even if it has low synergy with barb.
But what make you think barbarian have low synergy with dragoon ?
from the way I see it…
barbarian(doppel) dragoon, will deal more damage then hoplite(doppel) dragoon
hoplite get 150 crit 20% block, lunge 6sec weak to pierce.
barbarian get atk of 330 from warcy, 150 from frenzy, 50crit from cleave.
that mean, while using deeds of valor stacked, or together with cyclone… will deal more damage then the hoplite, becouse it multiply my attack by % right ?
so for 6sec only, my dragoon will be weaker then other dragoon ? but overall stronger ?
if there is something about synergy I miss except for that, please let me know.
How does War cry work exactly?! I dont understand how it gives 330 damage?
Warcry reduce defense of target, increase your attack …
-30 per enemy x 10 max enemies = 300
warcry enhance passive increase the physical attack increase effect by 3 per attribute . attribute max lv10 x 3 = 30
so it’s 330 attack. frenzy with maintance give 150. without it give 300.
rightnow level 5 cyclone I do 1500 per tick.
with frenzy(fully stacked to 10) + warcry, I do 3000+ per tick.
if I use my deeds of valor I already hit 4000+ per tick…
regardless of the monster i attacked or the numbers, it’s pretty big increase…
I tested it right now…
and bring be back to wonder, how a hoplite dragoon will reach this damage while using cyclone ? the only buff it has is finestra, and that’s about it ?