Tree of Savior Forum

Back Attacks for physical damage

So we are getting a set bonus for a way to ignore block. Does anyone think it would make a great addition to physical attacks baseline.

This 1 move opens up so many doors design wise.

  • there would be a difference game play wise between physical attacks and magic
  • rogues (and some other archer classes) could specialize in back attacks (all sneaky like)
    -swordsmen classes could specialize in front attacks (all honorable like)
  • ww cards could get more use in multiple builds instead of just for rogues

Does anyone think it would make a great addition to physical attacks baseline.

Sorry to shatter your hopes but positionning is nearly impossible in this game for many reasons:

-The back of the monster isn’t really well defined, we have many reports of being behind a monster and not triggering the damage attributes of corsair or critical chance bonuses from backstab.

-The hit boxes aren’t well defined to start with.

Secondly block is rarely an issue unless you are PVPing. Moreover the stats of this necklace aren’t great and we need to know the new bracelets to be able to judge if the set is better than frieno or not.

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I take it you’ve never quested on a rogue?

I can confirm this, one of the Master quests (IIRC from the Chronomancer Master) is to go to Alemeth Forest and get 40 monsters to turn their back on you. Needless to say, unless you can unaggro stuff (Fade, Sleep…) the quest is impossible to complete (nothing will turn their back on you once aggroed). And even then, you are often told that you’re not facing the back of the monster (try that on those Truffles for example…)

I’m not asking back hits to be required to kill a monster. I’m asking back hits be able to accelerate killing a monster. You know, greater rewards for greater effort. Since by your accounts, back hitting is WAY harder, the rewards could be scales higher.

Having a rogue as my 1st high lv archer, I know how to back hit. It’s a 1v1 thing. You don’t expect to back hit when mobbing, though it can happen to a couple in your pull (which is nice). That said, it would be nice to be rewarded for the effort.

If you can’t back hit, then business as usual else get rewarded.

They are defined. That’s all you need. The only problem would be if a monster had “no back” but that itself isn’t really a problem. You aren’t required to back hit all the time.

Pre “nerf” rogue had to deal with this all the time (hence not many rogues) but those that stuck to it “learned the skill”.

If you can’t back hit (for what ever reason: bug or lack of skill) then business as usual. You aren’t suddenly un-able to kill a monster if you can’t back hit (for what ever reason: bug or lack of skill).

There are mechanics in the game already that “help get back hits” so you don’t actually have to “go for the back”.

  • WW cards redefine your attacks as back hits
  • Sneak hit redefines your attacks as back hits

There are other mechanics that can combine with this (clearly possible with the velcoffer set bonuses).

  • Combine the toy hammer mechanic with back hits for "every x number of hits your next attack counts as a back hit).
  • Combine the dumbbell mechanic with back hits for “every stack of this buff has a chance your next attack counts as a back hit” for 100% back hit on 10 stacks.

Not a reason to not implement.

  • It IS an issue in PvP so implementing it addresses (does not solve it but addresses it non the less) the issue in some form (as opposed to NOT addressing the issue). Instead of stacking block pen PvPer will have the option to opt for skill instead of RNG and go for the back hit.
  • It ISNT an issue in PvE because monster do not require back hits to kill. It offers a skill based option to playing (that isn’t required) as opposed to relying on RNG (something quite a vocal number of players are getting more and more irritated with)

This has nothing to do with the stats on the necklace. Adding back hitting to physical damage BASELINE would mean you wouldn’t require the necklace.

  • For example(s):
    All back hits deal 1.1x normal damage (it doesn’t have to be block pen)
    All back hits ignore x def/eva/block/SOMETHING
    All back hits gain x atk/acc/block pen/SOMETHING

I know, I did this (rogue3 quest) by myself. This was still doable (more so) compared to the nak muai RNG item hunt quest. Doing the rogue3 quest could be done faster due to skill or help with a friend. Nak muai is PURE RNG.

False, before ww cards all rogues would never have been able to trigger sneak hit or back stab after aggro if this were true. Monsters have a delay before taking actions and that delay is enough to get a monster’s back. This is why monster animations take so long (which is a huge complaint of druid transformers confirming this to be true). You hit monster back’s during an animation.

The ONLY time back hitting baseline would be bad is when IMC introduces a buff/monster that can only take physical damage from behind (has never happened but it might).

I havek rogue on my falcon, irs simply to do back atacks…of course you will never hit all the time, but the marjority you can.

Yup, where you get the crit depends from monster to monster and what is defined as back by the game…

for archer is easier cause you can round a monster until crit but am not sure about swordy :expressionless:

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for sword(read as melee skills) it’s gonna be a nightmare, but for archer not so much!.
and let’s not forget of werewolf cards, since with it you will have at least 30% to by pass block once equip this set! and this is what i believe imc wanted to implement with this chance since in the past only rogue really gained advantage by hitting the back of the monster-player-boss so having a new mech with it is a good thing , maybe in the future we can see cards giving extra damage to hit back as well, or equips and so on!
going back to this change now a full low block.p character with just 3 werewolf nv 10 can at least hit 1/3 of the time those murmilos, something that today against a full block murmilo even if you invest a lot on block.p they would still block a lot of your atks , so the 30% alone is a huge difference, and of course the player would need to sacrifice 3 purple cards but is a good change, at least we will have this option.

it’s useless sh!t for PVE because IMC forgot to adjust block and evasion for any monsters after the Rank 7 update.

IMC stated back then that physical attacks are affected by evasion and block because it can also crit.
Meanwhile, magic will always hit, but can’t crit.

However, they never balanced the game around this.
Physical attacks are basically never evaded nor blocked by the vast majority of monsters (especially unbalanced regarding boss monsters).

That’s not how it’s supposed to be.
On the contrary, to outbalance the 50% additional damage of critical hits, the block chance and/or evasion chance of monsters should be,
by default, at least 20% after reducing the average hit-rate/block penetration gained via the ~ endgame gear choices (i.e. an equal worth of about 200-300 STR/DEX).

And this is only to outbalance an average crit chance of 30% (after reduction of the monsters crit resistance, which is equal to ~ 290 excess crit rate).

It does neither account for higher crit rates nor for any amounts of critical attack (which additionally strengthen critical attacks).

This didn’t happen.
IMC broke the whole system, making it so much more profitable to create a physical damage dealer.

Now they gave even better skills&attributes to physical damage Classes/skills for the newer Classes,

Made random stat equipment basically benefit physical Classes the most (as you can have STR&DEX&other stats since there is up to 4 random stats on the gear)

Made the best Velcoffer set effect for physical Classes only

And now created new accessories that are only benefitting physical damage dealers & summoners.

This is a â– â– â– â– â– â– â–  broken game.

Where is the balance if they shove the physical Classes all the pros and no cons?

Why can’t Velcoffer evade or block attacks once in a while? He’s just a freaking punching bag.
And he doesn’t even have a higher critical resistance to balance this out.

low crit resistance, low block rate, low evasion rate = tree of critical hits.
Good game.

Meanwhile, magic amplification is still just jacksh!t.

Why they can’t simply make it like crit but randomly augment the magic damage between +1% and +100% and adjust the values to scale against the critical resistance of the monster is beyond me, if they’re not willing to balance block rate and evasion properly.

So basically you are mostly complaining about monster design?

Regarding the topic, what I picked up from this read is “ignore block on back hit” is neither good nor bad for PvE because not enough monsters have high enough block.

Kind off topic but just about the backstab/rear attacks as a rogue, personally I think it is great on paper only… Don’t get mr wrong here, I also played a rogue on my main but while the idea of hitting a critical while hitting from the back (or with ww cards) sounds cool and efficient, I feel that before you get results you have to fulfill too many “requirements” first like 3 slots for your werewolf cards, positioning etc.

I am speaking for pve mainly btw, and once you hit monsters even with 1 hit you get aggro so fulfilling the “requirements” begin before you see results maybe unless you are bossing and can keep that rear attacks coming?

Lastly if you got quite decent gear, you will kill the monsters almost immediately even before you try to get those rear attacks.

The idea of rogue gameplay is good but with limited card slots (which i switched to 3 GG cards which maibtains my dps) and layers of pre conditions before getting results made me drop rogue

Just sharing

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this is exactly the essence of the post.

As always, IMCs gruesome balancing ability made it unnecessary to even build up block penetration against the vast majority of monsters.

You can check out the list here :

The monsters with “high” numbers (above 133) are basically ET monsters only, with normal monsters starting to appear more frequently from 112 onwards.

Now what that translates to can be easily pictured when we look at the block formula:

block chance = (block rate - block penetration)^0.7

The least block penetration a player can have with 0 investment is a level 360 Cleric who has only 3 base DEX.

This translates into 91 block penetration.
112-91 = (21)^0,7 = ~8% block chance
[as every point of DEX provides ~0,8 block penetration, this is equal to about 27 DEX worth of block penetration to acquire 0% block chance].

So, normal monsters will, without any investment, block around ever 12th hit or even less.

If you have some extra DEX/block penetration from the weapon or these new accessories,
the block chance will instantly become 0% as you only need 21 more block penetration for the vast majority of monsters (4574 of 4624 total monsters[=98,92%] require less than 123 block penetration to achieve 100% hit chance).

So,by equipping the necklace alone, your character will have at least 91+65= 156 block penetration.

There are only 22 monsters with more than 156 block rate, which is ~0,00476% of all monsters in the game.
Unless the next cap introduces more monsters with way more than 156 block rate, the effect of the set is completely useless for PVE, as the necklace provides enough basic block penetration to have an effect equally as powerful while not requiring your character to stand behind the monster.