I mean, seriously? I’m glad they realized that SP comsuption per second was a horrible design, but the cost they chose is obscene. Triple the SP cost and up to double cost if you have 400+ SPR… really? For a 50% damage buff? Has any damage amplifier resource ever been so expensive? I know it’s kToS content only atm, but i’m surprised nobody made a topic about it yet.
I don’t know how bad this will be, but i,m confident this can’t be right. I don’t care if the class can do fine either way or not, there was no need for this absurd SP cost and the SPR sinergy was also unneded.
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Serpentine, Gae Bulg, Dethrone, and Dragon Fear are still quite weak as well. Dragon Fall wasn’t the issue and didn’t really need the buff, it’s these other skills that need it.
The Helmet is still bad design considering how unnecessary it is, not to mention ugly. I also take issue with it reducing Movement speed on a melee class, especially one with fairly slow skills, and the only way to remove that is by reducing the classes damage significantly which it can’t afford.
Dragoon needs to really be looked at.
3 Likes
Lol, that’s as if saying Inquisitor damage needs to be looked at.
The new Dragoon has overall more damage than the current Inquisitor, the only difference is that Dragoon needs to pay way more SP in combination with the Helm to do so.
In my opinion Dragoon is fine after the patch[except for maybe some SP costs of low CD skills],
you just need to realize that it is a great Class.
These skills have extra effects (except for Serpentine). Look at how weak e.g. Malleus Maleficarum is, simply because it has an extra effect.
You can’t expect every skill to be a skill that deals several thousand % of damage, otherwise Dragoon would be a 3 skill Class like Inquisitor (God Smash, Ripper and Breaking Wheel) with only one skill available every once in a while to deal damage (i.e. God Smash).
I’m a returning player from a very long time ago.
But I went Hoplite>Dragoon>Cata (not very far into cata yet) and it’s really treating me well. About level 315 now.
But the helmet is something I dont use very often for sure unless I want to be just nonstop spamming pots and still coming up empty.
Granted, I’m not max level, and without that plus an awsome weapon I cant really comment on the endgame viability. But what I’ve seen of it so far has me really happy with my choices.
I don’t think Dragoon is gonna be good in PvE but depending how fast it goes off it might get a lot better for PvP. Currently Cataphract is too nerfed, the MS duration getting cut down was stupid, from what I’ve heard it may not actually be applying, but if it is (I don’t play the class anymore) 10 second Trot makes the entire class not worth the spot in the build. Dragoon having Dethrone and a very Dragonfall could actually take it’s spot and work well if you built around the lack of Cataphract MS.
Quick 1500% SFR, 2 skills that ignore 50% defense and do over 750% SFR, and a mediocre CC. That’s pretty good in a Lancer build compared to Earth Wave, nerfed Trot, and Impale/Rush for rare situations.
Again if the Trot nerfs aren’t actually applying Cataphract > Dragoon, but if they are applying, I mean Dragoon is the less ■■■■■■ of the two so unless you’re doing a Sword and Shield + Twohand Spear build using Pelt-Templar-Lancer then Lancer-Dragoon-Templar is an okay option.
I’m fairly new to playing tos but I’m currently cata > lancer > temp and find temp underwhelming. Cata is also ok at best. Is templar usually the go to option here? My guild recommended it to me for a all round build to do gem feud, boss, cm and HG. Although my friend is playing a less geared BM and beats irridian dog in 4 mins while I’m doing it in 11 mins. My guild told me I’d excel at bossing with this build but it doesn’t seem that way
Templar is underwhelming in solo content anda works well in guild content. Normally, the way to go is: Hoplite > Cata > Lancer. Your spamming can melt bosses really fast.
Just out of curiosity, but were you using the Returning Player weapon while levelling the character? Most builds that makes sense, although underperforming, will be easy to level if you were.
Yes but this thread is about dragoon not Inquisitor. Nobody is asking for every skill to have high SFR. The problems with dragoon are as follows:
- Serpentine is guaranteed crit on an enemy that is afflicted with a movement speed debuff (likely dethrone). If you have an enemy rooted, the last skill you want to use is something as weak as Serpentine. Guaranteed crit for a class that makes such incredible use of Hoplite is also insulting. You will already have high crit rate so what the hell is this guaranteed crit chance for?
- Gae Bulg is a 1-point wonder skill that is useful for debuffing bosses and nothing else since you can’t aim it. It offers something like 17% DPS increase for close-range physical attackers which usually means 1-2 people in a party can benefit from this. Pre-RE Gae Bulg boosted party members atk/def by 7% within its area of effect. This skill is somehow worse for parties which is a double whammy since the time to line the skill up means you are eating away a few seconds of DPS to make your potential future DPS better. Its not worth the time or skill point investment.
- Dethrone taking a spark of inspiration from Spear Lunge has found a way to make itself a 1-point wonder skill as well. High initial SFR with low return on investment beyond. The debuff it offer caps at level 1.
- Dragon Fear is a pathetic attempt to make up for the complete lack of AoE on any dragoon skill (aside from Dragon Fall). The point investment serves mostly only to boost Dragon Soar which in PVP you will rarely be close enough to use. If you manage to root an enemy and close the distance you still need to waste time casting this skill before you could use the slow windup of soar.
Compound all of this with the lack of AoE on any of dragoon’s skills and universally slow skill animations and you end up with an overall weak class.
EDIT: Obligatory comment about how bad SP drain and movement speed penalties are (one of which is being addressed). Lets not forget that dragoon helmet is back to a 5 minute duration after its change to infinite duration in pre-RE. C’mon IMC.
EDIT:SPR->SFR
3 Likes
You’ll notice then how I didn’t say that, and in fact called the Dragon Fall change unnecessary.
That’s the exact issue with Dragoon. This statement combined with your odd comparison to Inquisitor makes me think you don’t understand Dragoon’s situation.
Dragoon’s raw skill factor is mostly okay, the problems that the class face aren’t raw skill factor. The class is mostly AOE limited, its utility skills are bad, skills are slow or are difficult to use which harms its synergy with classes like Hoplite or even comboing up its skills to properly use the status effect damage increases.
I’ll restate what I said in more specifics so you don’t make assumptions again:
Serpentine, Gae Bulg, Dethrone, and Dragon Fear are quite weak.
Serpentine needs to deal more damage or be quicker or have more AOE potential or a combination of these things. This is the only skill that needs a damage increase.
Dethrone’s utility should be expanded to make it worth investing in.
Gae Bulg’s utility is weak and it’s difficult to use.
Dragon Fear requires a fair amount of investment and requires fairly consistent use to provide AOEAR that other classes have, and has another debuff to deal with.
Then there’s the Helmet of course that we all agree on, but it also has the Movement Speed reduction which doesn’t make sense for a class as slow as Dragoon is.
IMC’s change to Dragon Fall was unnecessary, at most it should maybe receive more damage per point invested to encourage investment but I’m not particularly sold on that, adding a 2nd overheat is overkill when most of the other skills need to be reworked. If anything one of Dragoon’s weaknesses or at least non-strengths should be a lack of big AOE.
So again, Dragoon needs to really be looked at because it’s a frustrating class to play with an inconsistent role and not enough skill options.
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…
I mean are you sure you want to say that? Dragon Fall has quite some AoE, same as Gae Bolg, and even Dragon Soars AoE is quite something.
I’ll bring up Inquisitor again simply because you make me do so.
Inquisitor has exactly 2 skills with a decent AoE, Breaking Wheel and Ripper.
Both skills have a high CD time [which can be reduced a bit by killing monsters with the skills] of 45 and 55 seconds.
Dragon Fall has 50 seconds CD time and 2 OH.
Do you see IMCs pattern here?
Skills with a large AoE on melee-based Classes usually have high CD times.
Skills with low CD time usually have a really bad AoE (like e.g. God Smash, which probably has one of the worst AoEs in the game).
Another reason as to why IMC won’t boost the AoE capabilities of Dragoon is because Retiarius exists in the Swordsman tree. Retiarius is the Class that can catch and group several enemies close enough together to finish them with your attack skills.
If IMC would boost the AoE capabilities of Dragoon, that would directly reduce the worth of having Retiarius in your build and also unnecessarily upgrade a Lancer build with more AoE capabilities if Dragoon is added.
That’s not a problem if you ask me. It’s not as if you always need to have the Helm equipped,you only need it to boost the damage of your Dragoon skills.
There is also the lightweight option that reduces the movement speed penalty to 0.
I believe the movement speed penalty is in place to differentiate between riding Dragoons and walking Dragoons. Since mounting can give you 5-6 additional movement speed, a riding Dragoon can always wear the full helmet without going below normal movement speed (30/33).
Or you can utilize Murmillios Sprint; after all, both Classes have some forced synergy.
Meanwhile, a walking Dragoon will probably use the lightweight helm, but can use Retiarius skills to make up for the damage difference (i.e. the damage bonus via rete debuff).
So it pretty much distinguishes between different builds, while still leaving open tactical use of the normal helm in cases you don’t move much (e.g. fighting against boss monsters).
Oh, by the way, Dragoon isn’t slow either. Only with the helm equipped.
If you want to see a slow Class, look at Inquisitor. He even has his dash interrupted when hit, while Dragoon can dash 24/7 even if mounted and even if hit by enemies.
Dragoon is anything but slow. If he is, he’s made so deliberately but the player for not utilizing the utmost movement potential as a Swordsman.
You keep harping on about inquisitor in a thread about dragoon. If you want to discuss the prospects of inquisitor, please start a thread about it as you are derailing the topic.
Gae Bulg and Dragon Soar have an AoE of 0. They use the players native AoE attack ratio (default 1) which is why I run everything under the sun to boost my AoE attack ratio (nepa necklace, abyss bracelet, enchants, squire food). Please stop talking about dragoon since you do not have the basic facts straight.
Increasing AoE of dragoon isn’t the end-all be-all, it is just one possible solution. I’m also not sure why you think Dragoon shouldn’t/won’t get more AoE because Retiarius can pull. Let’s ask ourselves too, what good is luring in 25 enemies if you can only hit 2 of them at a time?
You absolutely need the helmet equipped at all times. The helmet doesn’t make dragoon skills more powerful than other classes, it put them on par with. Your statement here is like telling a swordsman that he doesn’t need to always have gung ho active.
The lightweight option is a joke. You take a huge loss in DPS to retain normal movement speed on a class that is already a close range attacker.
If you want to play a mounted spear you don’t play dragoon. You play a catalancer with hoplite, retiarius, or barbarian.
You definitely aren’t playing a murmillo dragoon. I’m not sure what synergy you think two classes with competing headgear buffs could possibly have. Not to mention you can’t use sprint with a spear.
Nobody is using a 10 second buff to make up for the lack of damage you experience 50% of the time. Throw Rete’s debuff lasts for 10 seconds with a 20 second cooldown. I’m also not sure why the solution to dragoon consistently goes back to forcing a synergy with retiarius when it already has a more forced one with hoplite (shock from spear throw-> dragon fall and all of the spear buffs + spear lunge). If you make up for the lack of AoE/damage with Reti, and the lack of mobility with Cataphract, you have no more room for Hoplite. If dragoon as a class is reliant on two other classes to make up its shortcomings, it has bigger issues. There are better options for everything you’ve suggested.
Dragoon is incredibly slow. Every skill has an awful windup/animation.
- Serpentine takes 2 seconds to completely use and deals the lowest damage of any dragoon skill boasting 105%x7(735) and requires a debuff to setup its damage potential.
- Dragon Soar has a kneeling animation windup before skill use and an after-cast delay to boot. Its slow to start and slow to finish making multiple casts (which you will be doing consistently) slow. That is all before considering the prerequisite dragon fear that you need to cast. (Imagine a PvP scenario where you need to aim the narrow hitbox of dethrone at an enemy some distance away to root them. You then need to close the distance, equip the dragoon helmet (since you don’t believe it needs to be equipped 100% of the time), use dragon fear, and then use soar. But no- dragoon isn’t a slow class.
- Gae Bulg requires you to run away from the enemy, turn around, and throw. The throw itself takes about 1.5 seconds to complete and lands a fixed distance from the player making it useless in PVP and even unreliable at the best of times (World Bossing). Its even awful for large crowds (think CM) as it has 0 AoE attack ratio despite your earlier comment comparing its AoE to Dragon Fall.
- Dragon Fall takes about 3 seconds to use with its kneeling animation, jump time, and recovery time, none of which the player is invulnerable for (not the kneel, not while in the air jumping, and not after landing).
For anyone who reads this thread sometime in the future, please note how Umineko has seemingly 0 knowledge about Dragoon. They could not even be bothered to look at the skills tooltip which could have cleared up how much AoE the skills have.
~Azura Skyyy
5 Likes
even if goon didnt have the stupid SP problems they randomly gave it, the playstyle would still feel clunky
the class needs a lot of qol, it worked pre rebuild because you could combo it with hoplite and its buffs and make it into a tanky burst caster, but they ripped all that away after rebuild and somehow managed to make it extra clunky by giving it a movespeed penalty and dragon fear
im pretty sure the designers who reworked the class hated its guts or were simply incompetent.
I think Dragoon will be in a decent place for PVE when the change happens, the largest part that made the class clunky for me was messing with the helmet equips over and over.
It will always be secondary to retiarius for pvp, and combining reti and goon for pvp will still be sub optimal compared to having pelt/rode/murm.
We’re happy for the changes but have our reservations as they aren’t addressing the skills that were the biggest problems (well- I guess dragoon helmet was one of the biggest issues). We’re still waiting for the skills listed before to be addressed. They buffed 2/3 best dragoon skills and fixed helm.
4 Skills still need some changes.
I think dragoons fine now with the changes it got with sp today. I don’t think dragoon will ever be on par with the meta classes but it’s totally fine when you compare it to classes that can also use it’s skills both mounted and unmounted which all have some useless skill nobody uses aside from hoplite.
Dragoon is decent, it can use some QoL but nevertheless decent. I also think people are exaggerating how bad Dragoon is.
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Try playing it. There is a reason you see so few of them in-game.
AoE = Area of effect. It means the area on the ground/around the caster that is affected by using the skill.
This is completely different from the sub-status AoE attack ratio, which allows you to hit more monsters with certain skills that don’t have a fixed number of targets or an unlimited number of potential targets.
If you were talking about your characters native AoE attack ratio, then why do you use the term Area of Effect? You were just confusing me and now you brand me a fool by your mistake to communicate what you wanted to say in a way that it could be understood.
Yes, if we are talking about AoE attack ratio, the skills might lack a bonus, but that doesn’t mean that you cannot hit many enemies without the bonus.
After all, Swordsman has the highest initial AoE attack ratio bonus (4 SR), and you get 3 from Dragon Fear, which makes it initially 7 without any further equipment.
That’s the same AoE attack ratio I have with my God Smash&Smite (3 base +4 from skill) before equipment.
Yet I don’t lament on behalf of it and instead deal with it by adding Classes that can actually clear the numbers of enemies into my build.
You can do the same with e.g. Hoplites Spear Throw, Retiarius’ Blandir Cadena/Trident Finish/Dagger Finish, Murmillios Scutum Hit/Frenzied Slash/Shield Train, Rodeleros Shield Bash/Targe Smash/Shooting Star
Here is a video of an iTOS player doing pretty well in Baubas cave despite all the odds (with 9 SR), and I can’t see the problems you try to elucidate, especially since it’s exactly the combination of Dragoon and Hoplite you mentioned:
About Dragon Fall:
Ripper also takes at least 4.5 seconds to use and there is no protection (aside of knockdown/knockback immunity).
The skill also only hits enemies a certain range away from you (Gae Bolg problem?), so enemies close to you/around you won’t be hit and can keep punching you while you cast.
Dragon Fall at least clears enemies all around you, which is the best scenario for an AoE attack, yet you complain about the animation lock…
Just use Bash to knock them down if you don’t want to be hit while casting.
With the new patch reducing the SP issues of Dragoon to ± 0, Dragoon is well enough for the game.
Exactly my thoughts. Some people who don’t play other Classes which are bad/worse off simply cannot acknowledge the fact that IMCs Re:build equalized a lot of attack skills, especially in the physical damage department.
It’s the same of how people declared the death of Musketeer and now you see Musket>Piper>Sapper everywhere. I wonder why people are always early to complain about skills being too clunky.
After all, this is a semi-action MMORPG where your position, the enemies position and your stats are supposed to matter. Dragoon does a very good job at this, it balances range with mobility and power with animation duration/delay.
It feels realistic, engaging and at the same time not overpowered to play&watch.
Are you playing PvP lately?
Cataphract is insanely absurd to fight against, they gave like a lot of overheat to knockback skills so the Cata can knockdown you uninterruptedly and the skills still do some decent damage, with the low cooldowns you can literally knockdown people and damage them until they die, mov speed buff is just a bonus.