Tree of Savior Forum

An analysis about swordmen identity (and why they suck in general)

Disclaimer

This is entirely my point of view and in no way represent IMC’s point of view (although I wish it does)

You may or may not agree with my point of view, but keep the discussion civil

The analysis

So far on many threads in the forums, this is the main debate point of people: whether swordmen are tank or DPS. After spending thoughts on this I would say that both are … wrong.

Swordmen are frontline fighters by default, if anything, I would call them VANGUARDS.

Let’s begin with the core identities of all classes to see what I mean:

Archer
From the first circle of archer you can see that this is the class that deal range DPS, with some CC and utilities. Why? Look at these skills:

  • Swift step: offensive utility buff --> further expanded by later classes such as scout and falconer
  • Multishot: heavy AoE nuke --> further expanded by classes such as ranger, sapper, fletcher and cannonneer
  • Full draw: minor CC and debuff --> further expanded by classes such as wugushi, hunter, scout and rogue
  • Oblique shot: spammable DPS nuke --> further expanded by classes such as ranger, fletcher and cannonneer

Cleric
Cleric can heal by default, but unlike other games, heal can be used to attack too. From the first circle we can already see that cleric offers a wide range of utility from defensive buffs and spells to offensive buffs, debuffs and damaging attack.

  • Heal: defensive utility --> expanded by classes such as priest and plague doctor. Can be used as offensive as well --> expanded by krivis, druid, paladin etc
  • Cure: same as heal
  • Safety zone: defensive utility --> needed by all classes, but favor static fighting classes such as monk, dievdirby and krivis
  • Deprotected zone: offensive debuff --> expanded by plague doctor, monk, bokor and sadhu etc.

Wizard
From first circle of wizard we can see that this is the AoE magic class with supportive buffs/debuffs and magic CC

  • Energy bolt: single target DPS. But this is not expanded by any other classes except further circles of wizard.
  • Lethargy: offensive debuff and support --> expanded by linker, chronomancer, thaumaturge etc
  • Sleep: AoE magic CC --> expanded by cryomancer, psychokino and linker
  • Earth quake: AoE nuke --> expanded by almost all wizard tree, except thaumaturge.

Swordman
Looking at first circle of swordmen, you can say that the identity of swordmen is to deal out constant DPS, couple with physical CC, and most importantly: the ability to withstand CC in battle (aka, vanguard)

  • Thrust: spammable DPS --> expanded by highlander, barbarian, doppel, corsair and fencer
  • Bash: melee physical CC --> expanded by rodelero and cataphract
  • Gungho: offensive utility buff, with trade off --> expanded by doppel, shinobi and fencer
  • Concentrate: offensive DPS buff --> expanded by all spammable DPS classes as above
  • Pain barrier: this is what I think the identity of swordmen right here, resistant buff --> expanded and used by all swordman classes.

Now if you look at all those skills, NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING says that swordman is a tank.

After playing many classes in this game, I conclude that anyone can tank. Only peltasta have an edge over other because of swashbuckling.

If you don’t believe me, go to roxona construction east building and watch some archers faceroll on 5-6 black colifly. They dodge all the attacks. And as long as you can live, you can call that a tank.

The problem

Now back to the swordmen problem. So if swordmen is not designed to tank, but only to frontline, and all aspects of swordmen seem to be expanded out nicely, why do swordmen receive so much difficulties?

Well, let just blame it on the game design.

  • First, with pain barrier, you can either build swordmen into frontline DPS that goes in, take damage and cause rampage on frontline (let just call this the JUGGERNAUT path) or you build swordman in to a tank that can shield damage for party (the commonly called TANK path)
  • However, the problem is that pain barrier only helps against physical CC such as knock back, knock down and stagger. It leaves the majority of strong magical CC unchecked, such as sleep, freeze, lift, stun etc.
  • To the next point, where end game mobs and players largely throw out magical CC, it renders swordmen impossible to build the JUGGERNAUT path, because when you get CC’ed, you don’t deal damage, you are just a meat bag. Thus swordmen are pigeon holed into building a tank

If you crunch enough number, swordmen DPS are actually not that bad, but they don’t get to deal it, they are busy dodging the magic CC thrown at them all day long.

The solutions and suggestions

The easy part

  • Add attribute to pain barrier to allow resisting/nullifying/reduce magic CC duration and effect. It might not need to be 100% resistance, but should be at least reliable to allow swordmen to be a fearful force when charge toward enemies, not laughing stock.
  • Add more range CC to mobs/bosses, AND make them throw the CC at range so that swordmen is more desired at higher levels to front line

The hard part

  • Rework all maps mechanic so that it does not punish melee so harshly (I mean all mobs throw CC at melee range, wtf?)
  • Rework mobs AI so that they should prioritize melee lure better, and don’t run away at max speed making melee classes unable to follow
  • Add more resistant gears into the game.

And swordmen classes skills still need some balance tweaks, but I won’t go into those details as they are already cried out enough.

That is all

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Swordman’s usefulness in Party is Swash Buckling from Peltasta. As long as u have this skill, u should have no problem in finding grinding party, or Solo questing/grinding.

I have already played all of main classes and have no problem with playing swordman class (I have 1 Peltasta in class line ofcos)

And therein lies one of the biggest flaws of the swordman tree, you can be a spear wielding elite dragoon, a 2h sword monster doppel, an elegant fencer, a guild leader templar or whatever but oh wait, you didn’t pick Peltasta? Well, tough ■■■■ brother, have fun.

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And that is the pigeon hole. Peltasta is at most 1/3 of swordman choices, that should not decide the usefulness of the whole tree.

i read about this far, scrolled a bit… and thought

“why would you not post this in the ‘swordsman feedback’ forum, where it will be read… instead of General, where people will just go TL;DR like i’m doing right now.”

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Cleric need a buff

Troll me

Right now I hope to cry as loud as possible until something is done to help swordmen. There are enough threads in swordmen subforum, feedback and suggestion forums as well

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You’re over analyzing it.

Reality is r7 Archer skills have a tremendous amount of base damage.
Frost Cloud has many hits and a large aoe ratio (but doesnt hit flying enemies which is a drawback).

Dragoon has multi-hits and Gae Bulg provides extra damage through its effect despite being a single hit. However all the multi-hits have “low” base damage.
Same with Doppel, Cyclone, Zuken, Rudel low skill base damage.
Multi-hits all scale respectfully well and Swordsmen have many multi-hit skills throughout their time up to 280. They do not have high skill bases like the r7 archers, or non-existent CD’s like Fletcher.

Swordsman C1 has the Threat Attribute Provoke which means Swordsmen so long as they can put 1/5th+1 of the dps of other characters can keep a monster attached to them. This alone is sufficient to make the Swordsmen be able to take Tanking as a role, however there is a Hate limit of how many mobs can aggro a player at once and only Peltasta can break that, which means Peltasta is the one that can actually tank, as a regular swordsman even with their threat attribute has no ability to ward of 12 mobs.

Swordsmen are obviously given a choice of Tanking or going for damage routes. Other classes lack Threat generation tools.

welcome to “tree of whining”.

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my chars
swordman -> peltasta -> highlander2 -> squire3 (stay at lv224)

swordman -> peltasta -> hoptile -> cata3 -> templar

just have to bring 2 sets of weapon (2H and 1H+shield)

Not really, monk and sadhu do need a buff

It worked for archer before (though it took 3 months) so let hope it works now

Krivis, Dievdirby and druid at your service. Just stop playing priest and chaplain.

not sure if you played pre-renewal (high class). Knights and assassins became very redundant in competitive pvp and War of emperium, you only use 1 assassin to break the emp.

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That’s why I said swordman DPS is not actually that bad, it’s just that they cannot keep up the damage.

Also aggroing more than 12 mobs is pointless if you cannot kill them fast enough, especially when they have 80-100k HP …

I can easily kill 12 100k HP mobs, given there is someone that aggro them.

I’ve honestly thought about adding an attribute to Gung-ho whereas all the Swordsmen attacks while under aura will deal % scaling damage with every attack. It’d give them the oomf they need while still in a way being sacrificial.

Either: Swordsmen need more DPS to at least not worry about getting absolutely get R-18’d by regular mobs, because kill or be killed. I don’t think they necessarily need to faceroll, but they need to have damage to where they have to be conscious of how many enemies they’re fighting at once, or bite off more than they could chew.
or.
Swordsmen need more magical nullification attributes. I mean, as you say, Swordsmen getting out their damage isn’t really as bad as people make it out. The issue behind it is, you’ll get CC locked and die fast because hurr. But that’s more of a PvP concern.

In reality, they need both. But sacrifices can be made to achieve this. Become a wall, a hyper damage melee range attacker, or some bruiser capable of qualities of both.

Same here, if someone aggro mobs I can do that too, and I’m not even a full DPS swordman. But usually I’m the one who has to hold the aggro.

The thing is that the one aggroing the mob cannot do anything else. Try to imagine when that person do not have a party, how does he/she perform.