Tree of Savior Forum

A Definitive Solution to Bots

General Discussion
#101

Ok! I got it…

got another idea…

how about we mix it up and have the “decoy thingy” be an item (like monster orbs) that you can buy from shop…

read me out, it will do what you say, give the player a buff, but let take the red farther… like a traffic light, have it change to red after the first hit so you stop hitting and then it turns green again to give buff…

here is the big change, red must kill the player and take silver after hitting it, since bots don’t pause between attacks and wont wait for it to go back to green…

then again, the item must be cheap and accessible to everyone…

@Staff_Julie

What do you all think of this one?_?

#102

I think people will buy that and spam on other players to troll them, of they will buy them and farm it to get bonuses when hunting (that could be good actually).

#103

Won’t work, in fact I’ve been seeing more bots learning to avoid anvils. I imagine each mob has an ID and the ID of the ‘traffic light’ item would change to reflect that, they’d just have to figure out the ID of the Red Decoy and slip that code in their script.

It’d be a temporary fix… Points for trying though.

#104

you got a point, make something like 3 Tp :yum: that will be good for free players to buy once every so often and will get people that want to spam it a reason to throw money at the game…

as for trolling, it have to start in green, have a CD of at least 10m and the moment you see it turn red you just evade it…

people will really learn after the first green mob turns red and kill them xD

#105

Dawn, idk if you read everything I said, but we just came up to many possiblities of interactive action paced and themed systems that could work.

I don`t think you are right, because there are some behaviors that are simply impossible for a bot to reproduce unless it runs AI.

Some of those are hesitation, tendency to certain pattern movements on players do while bots do not, because they are related to arm imput or eye moviment, illusion interpretation, etc.

If you look up there are a lot of things that humans do easily that are VERY HARD to reproduce on a not complex bot.

And my point its that the bots used on online gaming farming are simple, if they were to complex, the programers would be engaged in complex security jobs.

Its unlikely that a guy who can come up with breaking every Captcha easily will charge less than what can profited from boting ToS. So if we have any ‘‘auto changing captcha’’ dinamic system it would already need semi-constant human intervention, and this alone would make bots less viable financialy.

Bots are not defeated by security or bans, they are defeated by making then not so financialy viable by beeing too complex or needing to update constantly, while making the game system harder to convert the farm into something that you can sell.

The dinamic Captcha puzzle mob i`m suggesting could work I think.

#106

Actually, this pretty much shows it how a system can measure hesitation and decision making behavior.

https://www.google.com/recaptcha/intro/index.html

#107

Whoa, went to play B&S and too much to catch up on. xD

I will just say once again, I think it could work. A developer would just have to fiddle with it to make it rewarding to do, and I’m sure they could come up with a way to implement it so it’s not annoying but welcomed as in Wakfu without being detrimental to game play.

It’s honestly not that complicated in theory, let the developers handle the kinks and test it with players. If nothing else it slows down bots which is just a win/win and if you think even with benefits it’s a nuisance, I see a lot more implemented atm to combat bots that’s more annoying. Best case scenario is it just works, worst case it doesn’t and it’s removed or never even brought live.

1 Like
#108

I read most of the first post and I think the system is clever and neat but… mostly the next posts were just talking about captchas and captchas have a huge percentage of failure and just inconveniencing normal players.

See you’re assuming they’re not making enough money off this, this isn’t a feature that would be constantly updated they’d just need to hire someone with the skill to patch their current script and make it better, maybe bring them back every few months to update it. The programmers behind RMT are usually those that can’t get actual jobs behind corporations and in most cases are actually freelancers… just like those that will make accounts and lift restrictions for RMT companies.

If they see a game as profitable they will expend their resources to make as much money possible. If a simple script they pay a programmer about $500 for can make them DOUBLE that, that is worth it to them.

The factors you and many others are discounting is that we don’t know how the core games work or how much money the RMT are actually making.

Like I stated with your hesitation clause, there is no such thing if it’s a simple ID swap which is what most MMOs do when an enemy changes into something else. Granted it could be a single entity with this behavior but then it gets complex, switching the mob ID would be better to justify ‘reward vs punishment’

Hence why I stated it wouldn’t work. It’s a good idea but you guys are treating the RMT programmers like they’re morons and in most cases they aren’t…They’re real men/women trying to make a living off their skills.

1 Like
#109

there is a difference between calling out problems and giving possible solutions…

am giving out possible solutions, if they work or not is up to experimentation…

how many monsters balls are out there?_?

if ID is the problem, just have it be rng… make one for all mobs/ decoy thingy turning green > < red and have the item give a random mob decoy buffer killer thingy from the item every time…

#110

Like I said, it’s a temporary solution. It’s good you’re giving out ideas and maybe with enough trial and error we can find one that works but like I stated before and to the OP of the thread… we don’t necessarily know how the system works.

Much like us, the testers behind RMT will also utilize trial and error and figure out how these decoy items work. Either making their bot restart itself when it shows, or finding a way to get the buff without triggering the penalty. Mob ID switching between an array would just lead to the testers finding out the values of each array… it’d also be a serious waste of data for the game’s code too.

However IMC can’t take risks, they can’t experiment… They don’t have the resources to do that so we have to go off our own experiences and knowledge to tear apart any possible idea. The moment we can’t tear one down is the moment we might have an actual solution.

I encourage you to keep brainstorming, really.

#111

…but we can just assume all of the things that you are assuming and that is not stupid? That seems fair.

Go watch this:

Go watch this:

Go read this:

Educate yourself… or don’t. I don’t really care. Stop pretending that you are smarter than everyone simply because you are ignorant. I could spam you links ALL day, but you’re just going to disagree with all of them for stupid reasons because you are an arrogant child and they don’t fit your argument. You clearly refuse to learn when presented with facts, all while maintaining a huge ego and it is just pathetic. You clearly have NO idea how the industry works, yet you pretend like you know everything. I’m done with you.

#112

This is a very awkward solution that puts way too much overhead. Even if it adds a 1/100 of a millisecond to a command it adds up over time. The steps in to doing this would be rough.

  1. Check the source of the input
  2. Determine what type it is
  3. Send it to receiver
  4. Receiver parse information

1 and 4 are the hardest thing to do. Unless your OS is super hard core locked down and have strict rules on what input it takes. People can very easily mask the data it sends.

I believe people seem to be attacking bot solution from a too mechanical point of view. Why must we attack the bots? Why can’t we attack the people? There are other options besides trying to attack the sellers. If there is no market they won’t put effort into and move on to the next game.

Simple explanation why do I want to guess 80%(?) of the population don’t go out and rob stores? Because the consequences out ways the benefits. Just have to put in logging for transaction, since this game already basically restricts you to AH for silver transaction, outside of talts. Trace a few gold buyers make them the prime example of what happens.

Much easier to break the arms of 100 gold buyer then 1 gold seller. Also I do literally mean break their their arms.

#113

I had a good laugh at this. Thank you.

You get the idea though. It seems to elude a lot of people. There are basically 3 ways to stop gold-sellers:

  1. Stop the bots from being able to play at all. This is impossible.
  2. Ban the bots before they can sell the gold. This is basically impossible as well.
  3. Stop buying the gold. Bingo. There’s the solution. If people won’t stop buying the gold, then you just have to ban those people. It’s an industry, like any other; it relies on supply and DEMAND.
#114

The only solution to BOT Control is use other player to PK the BOT.

To be fair : The procedure very simple and will make the games more enjoyable.

  • Right click on Suspected BOT, choose “Suspect”

  • A pop up appear on the player screen show number from 0 - 1000

  • Then the player have to type back in normal chat in 150 second.

  • If no detect any chat reply, that character status will be in PK Mode where any player can attack that character till death.

  • If that player reply, that character cannot be suspect for 2 hours - 4 hours.

KILL BOT WITHOUT MERCY.

#115

I got locked from posting for 24 hours due to my acc beeing new :3

I will read and watch that video, thank you, and try to always provide evidence when you claim something instead of just trying to make look as it is something that the person should know.

Pardon for being such an ass to you, but your heavily fallacious speech will lead any person who have a grasp of dialects to see you as intellectually dishonest debater.

The least I could was point that to you. While the worst I could do was completely disregard you and leave your opinion unaddressed.

I choose to face you, which I`m sure you know it means that I respected you.

ntn6371 You might be completely right, making buyers pay for it could be a solution. Idk if the game company would be eager to punish all buying players on large scale like that, perhaps a temporary ban with promise of permanent ban in case of reoffense?

This thread had A LOT of support as well on the other forum and facebook, people seem to think in vast majority that my kind of approach would definily help if not completely solve the problem.

Then would be just a matter of how exactly to adapt the the human-only behavion detection concept to dynamic mini-game system that would necessarily need human intervention, on a regular basis, while also beeing unpredictable, rewarding to engage for players and blends with thematic of the game in general.

Basicaly if we are forcing bots to get more people or to slow down while also providing a fun feature to players I can`t realy see what could be wrong with it. I personaly would want Cap N Atcha on wakfu even if no such things as bots existed.

I realize that its a lot easier on a turn based game, and something for ToS would need to be completely different, ranging from idk, PK, interaction between players, mobs with some mini-game that could only be solved by human intervention or especialized counter-security measures that hopefully would not be in reach of silver sellers for cheap enough, and this leads to a not so profitable botting.

Thanks everyone for support and opinions o/

One thing i`m completely sure, if bots won’t die, ToS will die. We have seen this happening.

So Imo if there`s ANY WAY at all to completely get rid of bots, that should be absolute priority for Devs, as right now as the game its, the most frustrating aspects of the game as those who were implemented to fight bots (trade and market restrictions).

#116

Please don’t try and make yourself sound smarter than you are. I’m 95% certain English isn’t your first language, so I won’t hold your countless grammatical and spelling errors against you, but you literally have nothing to back your argument up. All you can do is keep shouting ‘it works because it worked for wakfu because i didn’t notice all the bots that were around’.

I’d still like to know what ‘fallacies’ I used. Any quotes would be great.

No. No we haven’t.

#117

One thing i`m completely sure, if bots won’t die, ToS will die.

I really wish that for every time someone pointed out a flaw in ToS that would ‘kill the game’, that IMC could get a dollar for it. Hell, at that point they’d be so rich they’d put Blizzard on the spot.

The Captcha would honestly work for about…a day, tops. For all the work that went into designing, coding, and debugging it to work in the game, it would most likely get thwarted and rerouted in about a day or two tbh. There’s really no way to truly end botting without heavily restricting the player. The only thing you can do is to make the system very unappealing for a Gold Seller to want to do business in, but with how hype ToS is to most people, this game is far from unappealing. Cheat Systems are a joke, and Captchas are just code that’ll end up getting circumvented.

That said, it’d help, but I don’t think it’ll be all that useful in the long run. Perhaps with several other measures in tandem. Alone though, not really.

#118

I don’t like something, so this game will surely die because of it! It doesn’t matter if every MMO has bots. This one will die due to bots!

They literally tried a captcha system in their last game and it did nothing. Many MMORPGs have tried Captchas, and it has literally never stopped bots.