Tree of Savior Forum

Why are the staff so passive about bots?

General Discussion
#105

You’re right, you’re just running around spouting ‘m-muh bot problem!!1111 I know nothing about how the gaming industry works so everyone at forums pay attention to me!111’.

https://mmos.com/editorials/most-expensive-mmorpgs-ever-developed

Yes, these are the most expensive MMOs. No, not every MMO costs this much. Most of these MMOs have something in common though: they are all fairly new. The cost to develop a MMORPG has gone up drastically in the past 10 years.

If you think this game cost anything under 20 million dollars you are either insane or just stupid. Realistically I would imagine it cost probably around 30 million, but this is just speculation based on the amount of content inside. When you consider this game has been in development for over 5 years, that cost isn’t that surprising anymore.

Now ToS sold to ~600,000 accounts on steam. This includes every chargeback bot account as well. Let’s just ignore that though. It probably does eliminate a ton of accounts, but we don’t even NEED to take that into consideration.

Let’s assume the average player paid $25, which is a fairly generous estimate. Some players obviously bought all the DLCs, but a ton just bough the “$10” DLC to get in. Also due to the initial regional pricing, some players were getting in for as cheap as under $4, with their most expensive pack being under $20. I would gamble what the average player paid being around $15, especially given the large amount of SEA and BR players who got to pay significantly less (rightfully so), but even at $25 there is still plenty to work with here.

This means their total gross revenue would be 15 million. Now you have to remember that they are going through steam. Steam can partner in a variety of ways, and every contract is different, but you know they are definitely getting a cut out of this. Due to NDA the official numbers aren’t allowed online anywhere, but the general estimate people have come up with from various hints being dropped is anywhere from 30-40%. Let’s assume on the low end and say ~33.3%.

This brings their total sales down to 10 million before you take into consideration all their other costs. You must remember they had to set up and maintain servers. They also have to keep a ton of personnel on staff to keep developing and maintain this game. This game assuredly cost way, way more than $10 million to produce.

I’m sure you’ll throw a fit over these numbers as they don’t fit into your infantile whining, but these are all sound estimates.

1 Like
#106

There is a source showing how much an mmo can cost. I honestly dont care about bots in level 1-50 areas, I’m not that level anymore, and most players won’t be for long either. The bots can be reported by the people they’re bothering and then banned at the 24 hour mark. If you have an issue with that, switch channels to reduce the bots in your area. Then they won’t bother you so much.

#107

Thats extreme, I like it.

#108

sound estimates

Yeah, from your ass. You have no proof that these guys are in the red, in other words.

#109

This thing’s a mess…mindmapping software doesn’t work the way I want it to. -__-

Warning: Large Image (lol)

Open to all comers for additions and intelligent objections/notation of flaws that I won’t be able to instantly counter with client-server basics like server acknowledgements to client responses or relate to “costs” or “annoying to [lazy] users” gripes.

http://imgur.com/J31tXau

If you can’t zoom-in on the image the Google Drive link is below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BweRiRxx4CLoMW5PT1I3VHpnODg/view?usp=sharing

Overall, nothing is sent to the client other than the files temporarily used in the UI for the captcha, and the server does all the heavy work such as validation and making sure the filenames are as random as computers can make them (since computers can’t actually create ure randomness…for now)

Note of flaw :sweat::

I realized that at least one aspect of the system on the client side (UI/Captcha animation) could be shut off with illegal modification of the client, or even hooked by a plugin to display the CAPTCHA without the animations, allowing OCR software to read the images, and reply correctly…no amount of obfuscation on the client to hide the UI function, animations, or where the images are loaded into would prevent a coder from finding and hooking it.

A good anti-cheat/anti-debugger would be needed to stop the hooking, and it would mean IMC would have to whitelist addons in the future, or simply disallow it altogether, which would suck.

1 Like
Unlimted Bot Works (Hopeless Situation)
#110

You are beyond teaching, the worst kind of fool. I honestly pity you. I am done trying to educate you.

Another maintenance? Really?
#111

its more then small its non existant :smiley:

72 hr block on trading for new acocunt and 48 hours to transfer, a bot needs to stay alive for 5 whole days to even get 1 single transfer of its botting to any one buyer.

1 Like
#112

Not bad, though I feel the bots would end up falling into the 3x Incorrect Choices unless the area could not be typed or keylogged into. As in, if all else fails, mash numbers and give the command for enter, three times.

And then there’s the flaw you noted; the death of addons. I don’t use them, but they do seem very useful to people. Can’t judge if it’d be a sacrifice for a greater good because of that.

#113

This is true. However, IMC doesn’t seem to be any closer to stopping those accounts from being made. When F2P hits there will be hundreds of players asking the same questions I have-- as well as bots that don’t have to spend a single cent of their RMT money to get in. The situation will be far worse. I’m far from sensitive to these kinds of things, but even I’m put off by it.

If the community responds to those people the same way they have been responding to me… I dunno. You people don’t have to care about the lower levels, but it will be a lot of people’s first impressions of the game. I have a lot of experience with communities dying early because of toxic situations and unbearable playing conditions. Lag + Bots + Crowding will turn away a lot of people.

Yeah I could put up with the game, but I’ve already had a hard time caring about the game since about CBT2. Knowing that IMC isn’t on top of the ball makes the bot situation feel more permanent and depressing. Unfortunately most people are going to reply to me saying “then don’t play.” It’s kind of sad when that’s the more appropriate option.

#114

Because the 3rd-parties combined have more resources available. As a whole, it’s a GM’s job to answer support tickets, monitor in-game activity every once in awhile, compile reports on bugs and other feedback and send it to the Developers, and check all of the [Report Bot] reports which require them to check the prior activities of each one to make sure it’s actually a Bot and not some kids getting mad at each other and saying “i report u”. Meanwhile, RMT’ers job as a whole is to employ bots, monitor their activity, and handle transactions; the majority of this process is fully automated.

They’re outnumbered. The solution isn’t “Hire moar people Work moar hours”, but to employ a sufficient-enough in-game system for combating them that the majority of the Bots can’t regularly bypass. With a bit more improvement, maybe that system can be this: https://treeofsavior.com/news/?n=377

[quote=“STAFF”]Accounts with high report counts will then move to the next step of verification. Some have suggested using CAPTCHA, but that too, will be breached eventually. It puts needless restrictions on the players, so we are not considering its use. Instead, what we chose to use is a server-side classifier based on Machine Learning (ML) technique.

The classifier uses the comprehensive activity log of a reported account to determine if it’s a bot in percentages. We will not be revealing the classifier’s exact mechanism, as it can be manipulated by violators to bypass the system. We train our classifier by constantly inputting new data. The fact that we can maintain its accuracy is its advantage, because we’re going to manually determine which factors should be considered to identify bots. The classifier’s accuracy depends on how we determine the behavior criteria, and we examine over 20 basic criteria. The machine showed 99% accuracy on our Korean server when we set the machine to output fewer false positives. If we set strictness value low, the classifier will detect more bot with lower accuracy and vice versa.

An account that is deemed to be a bot becomes subject to restriction after a GM’s additional confirmation. If that account gets banned, then all the users who reported that account gain one RII point.[/quote]

Either way, “Bot armies” are becoming more popular and the yearly profits that a single RMT group can earn when successful at it on an F2P MMO can easily land in the mid to late 5-digits or even 6-digits in USD if the game is really popular. With that income, they’re not gonna stop unless they’re found irl, and they have the freedom of restarting them after ban-waves at any time of the day including weekends.

Sorry, until they come up with some miracle system, you’re just gonna have to put up with this. It’s the norm now, although IMC is doing a better job than most at trying to break away from it. The next popular F2P MMORPG you find is going to have the same problem and the sooner people realize this, the better.

7 Likes
#115

Thanks, I’ll mark this as solved since I’m satisfied with this answer. I AM an ignorant person when it comes to these things, but I just wanted some proof behind these “facts” people are trying to throw at me. This thread was simply a question, not a demand or a criticism like many seemed to mistake it for.

#116

The flaw you mentioned is the very thing I referring to. The team I worked on had a member that was hired before me… Who used to be an ex-botter, who “Hexed” (modified) the client, and was offered a job due to his skills. We weren’t the first to come up with hiring an offender to get rid of them. Jagex, and Runescape actually did this a long time ago, hiring and paying the guy who had made a botting/RMT website to help the team get rid of bots. I had suggested using Captcha for our server, because another game (rather, a private server of Aura Kingdom) had used that function, and it worked wonders on bots… For a while. It was an image, containing a 6 digit number, that would teleport people back to town if they failed 3 times, giving them 60 seconds to complete it. If they failed, they would receive a debuff that basically disabled skill use, if I remember correctly. If they passed, they got a small 10% EXP boost for a short period of time (10-30 minutes, can’t remember the exact number), and would have a longer delay between the next Captcha (which appeared during any item use, skill use, or item gathering).

He basically told me that modifying the client was all it would take to bypass it, just like with most other things. You know, the only thing we came up with (we never got to implement it, because it was out of our scope due to our team size and time constraints) that we thought might actually have a chance of working was the idea of designing our own HackShield-like software… Designed to meet our own needs, to cater specifically to our game. That way, we wouldn’t have to worry about some team of botters countering any fix or modification we made to the software, because we could instantly counter it if they countered, unlike with the actual HackShield (and similar programs) in which you would have to wait for the team to make a fix. Even then… With everything he had said was possible just by modifying the client… It made me doubt the possibility of ever having a bot-free game without somehow finding a way to completely remove any reason botters would have for botting.

Other than that, as far as Captchas go, outside of that experience… I’ve been told that in any instance where the code is provided as an image, and it requires you to type the answer, that answer is stored somewhere within the client the moment it is sent to the client to test the user, which picks a random one, usually within a limited number (not truly random since it is a specific number, usually 1000 or 10,000 sets of number combos) of random number sets of 6 digit/letter combinations, but they’re supposedly present client-side whenever it’s on your screen… Which means they can be deciphered by Captcha Breaker, and similar programs. Same goes for image-based ones, since there are image recognition programs out there that can be modified to do the same thing.

I’ve been racking my brain on how to actually solve the TOS bot problem, but what I keep coming up with are countermeasures to the solutions I’ve come up with… Captcha was the first one I actually came up with before realizing it just won’t work with how advanced technology is, and how easy it can be for these guys to solve them. It doesn’t help that I’m used to working with a population of 10,000 or less, and I know that this server is potentially going to have far more than that upon the F2P release… Which means far more bots. If they’re willing to pay for entry now, then who knows how many will come once entry is free?

#117

While I don’t agree that Captchas would solve anything, and I understand that they won’t risk Captchas because “Some have suggested using CAPTCHA, but that too, will be breached eventually. It puts needless restrictions on the players, so we are not considering its use,” what I don’t understand is how they can justify that excuse, when their current methods of preventing RMT are doing the same (putting needless restrictions on players)… Yeah, preventing Silver transfers in trades, and restricting Market trades to 48 hours (due to having bans every 24-48 hours) makes sense… What doesn’t make sense is making the game so that there is a 30% Market Tax (such a massive tax to sink out Silver from the Silver Generator bots, yet such a tax affects us all, and people raise prices to counter the taxes), and very limited amount of trades and Market Slots, if you don’t have a Token… For wanting to prevent RMT, this structure is known to make RMT valuable to those who cannot afford things monetarily, and the casuals who “don’t have time to grind out enough Silver to buy things from other players.”

I keep saying it, but, “To remove the bot problem, you must remove their incentive to bot.” RMT bots (farmers, and advertisers) are here to generate Silver to sell because there is a market in it, because of how IMC has the game set up. General non-RMT bots are present because they don’t have the time to farm Silver.

The current structure of the game is literally benefiting and tempting them. I seriously hope the Developers understand that, rather than just doing it this way out of greed, and being blind to it (or simply ignoring it).

#118

lol bot u reported 3hrs ago…kiddo,they cant simply cater to ur needs just becos “U reported a bot 3hrs ago”

think it through, how many players would be doing the same as well
and how many reports would they have to look through and IMC team are humans too.
they cant be here 24/7 just becos some players are affected by bots.

i was having issue with bots too.
to the point that i cant grind,
what do i do?
head out to do quests from another area without bots,

#119

Absolutely, that would give IMC more time to deal with the bots before they can cause much damage. Altough, knowing the community there would probably be raging objections about restricting the game, which I can partially agree with.

I’m of the opinion that any measures taken to stop bots should have no- to very little effect on legitimate players.

#120

Thats mostly because they bascally keep rehasing the same games, at least the big companies do, they don’t even try to do anything new and people are getting tired of the exact same game cloned over and over with a new number on it. Prime examples are FPS games, and most shooters since they all are the exact same game. I tell ya gaming would be dead by now if it wasn’t for the indie devs and smaller game studio’s. Hell undertale a mostly black and white rpg was the 3rd highest scoring pc game of 2015 on meta critic, only ones higher were GTA5 and some other game. Undertale shows that gameplay generally > graphics. A pretty game thats trash is still trash its just trash with glitter on it. Sadly though with how sheep/cattle-like most gamers are today making a game look pretty is enough to sell it enough.

#121

As much as I’d like the anti-bot stuff to have little effect on legit players its pretty much impossible to do if they want to actually deal with the problem. I’m still all for a capcha system, don’t believe idiots that say a bot can easly bypass it, because its not as easy as you think. Most games that have a capcha added that used to have a bot problem suddendly doesn’t have a bot problem anymore. The “bots” that get past the capcha are probally having the game client open while the bot is running and they are watching it to answer capchas, there is no way they can make something that can solve a capcha fully automated, especally not one that asks a question like: Choose the 3 fruits and it has 8-10 pictures to choose from, and the capcha spawns in diffrent places every time. If there is a program that can automatically solve these without any human interaction at all, link it to me, i’d love to see it.

Capcha’s do nothing vs botters that actually watch it once in a bit so they can answer it, but versus a fully automated bot? it’ll get them everytime. If someone is watching the bot its only semi-botting. Botting to me=compeltly automated you start it then leave it.

Like i said there is really 2 ways to deal with it, either A) Do something with the packets/netcode so the bot program cannot use it, or B) implement a decent capcha system which will nail the autotomis(sp?) bots pretty much everytime, but yeah, any bot runner thats watching it can solve it, those are the only ones that get past a capcha.

#122

The problem is that almost all RMT are in fact monitored.

#123

Captcha Breaker. Program designed to break Captchas. The program is automated. Call people idiots all you want, but all a Captcha is is an image on one side (whether image of text, or pictures), and those images are sent to the client to be verified, thus the data can be read by programs and identified. Even without such programs, you simply have to figure out how the Captchas work within a game, then use Image Recognition Software and a bit of scripting to bypass the Captchas. With text, it’s even easier, since any Captcha solving software only has to look for text (it’s not stored as an image, since the data input on the player side is typed text). With images, they are determined by x/y coordinates, regardless of location randomization. Those coordinates coordinates can be read… But most programs will just look at your entire screen for the images and solve them.

Oh, and the staff themselves have said they can be broken easily, thus the reason they’re not implementing them (see here: https://treeofsavior.com/news/?n=377 ). Calling them idiots, too? Guess you’re just calling names because you cannot think of a more creative solution than Captchas. Those games that have them added probably aren’t all that large in terms of population, or just don’t have RMT bots.

I don’t disagree that Captchas will probably work for your average idiotic botter that is just botting because they are casual players who don’t have the time to grind for materials and Silver, but they’re not going to work against RMT distribution companies, which usually have a person watching the screens at all times for such things (they will even react to GM interaction, but typically ignore players). They have more than enough money to keep coming back to this game, regardless of how many times they are banned. Pretty sure they have their own software to counter things like Captchas, as well as general bypasses for existing Anti-Hack software. All they have to do is purchase the Anti-Hack software themselves, and more or less reverse-engineer it in a way that allows them to understand how the program works, and how to work around it.

#124

Before this it was tolerable amount of bot, but this time, this is just insane! I made a new character because I messed up with a build, now I’m wasting time doing quest because these legion of bots are ksing people around. It is not even possible to grind with this much bot around. This is getting absurd. - SEA player