Tree of Savior Forum

ToS isn't going to be pay2win

Before reading this thread, please read What we currently know about Tree of Savior’s monetization. For portuguese speakers, here is a translation (the one I actually read too).

Now, after reading that, at first I thought “this game is going to be SO pay2win… look at all these advantages the people who pay have over those who don’t!”.

But think again: what premium users get aren’t really advantages. They actually just get access to all the features any and all MMORPG have. What happens here is free players don’t have access to the full game, but just a DEMO. If you want the full game, pay for it. The premium system used in ToS is much more similar to pay2play than pay2win.

Except for +3 movement speed (which we can see as “DEMO version has a -3 movement speed penalty”), everything else is OKAY, and not pay2win.

What I’m saying is not “new” to many players, and it seems that many have been discussing this for some time now. But since many other users still think ToS is going to be pay2win, I decided to make this thread and (maybe) end this discussion once and for all.

I’m not going to play this game when it’s released because I don’t like it. But the monetization model is not as bad as people here are thinking and that must be said.

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Me personally, I don’t mind putting money into a game I enjoy. I just dont agree with how they are going about the situation.

They should just have a subscription based model.

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I am ok with it. So let’s wait a final word from IMC. They should not sell de “free to play” idea if it is going to be a “premium acc to play” game (exactly, a hidden monthly fee).

A free to play model is based in things like cool special costumes, timed 2xp power ups, reset scrolls (skills / attributes), exotic special pets. That is not the case right now.

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Yes, ToS is not free to play. It’s more like a pay2play that happens to offer a limited version as a DEMO (which is not so common in MMORPGs - personally, this is the first time I see this idea). They should advertise it the proper way.

I don’t mind paying subscription fee for TOS, what I do mind is when I have to make micro transaction everywhere to access the feature.

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I think its pretty fair. I dont know why some poeple are making a fuss about the changes.

I so agree on this one “Max items on market at once - 1 for free user and 5 for premium user”. I know you guys saw the terror of people putting so many stuff on the market. Imagine if it’s OBT and the pages on the market would go x10 or even more. I find it hard to look for good items (search button svcks sometimes so dont tell me to use that. Also, i need to check the difference of the prices :smiley:)

So all in all, the benefits from premium user is not much of a threat on free users. My only question for them is the price of premium services. lel. I would love to avail that, however, i want to know if its affordable. Coz you know, i’m poor. Tee hee~

At the part of Movement Speed bonus, makes it look’s like as the player will not be able to move on a free account.
And yes, the game is turning pay to win. Even more because of the Movement speed bonus and the Trade Between Characters being only for Tokens (which I believe will have 9 digits on the price when they are sold on the market, if it does not turns to token users feature).
The tax on the market is also very painfull.

Beside there could be a way of buying and selling TP points in-game for Silver Coins, kind of like what happens on Spiral Knights.

Okay, I understand your point-of-view and it does make some sense IF they did what you are supposing they will do. The problem is you are just speculating. So, let’s stick to the facts here. The link I posted contains all we know right now about TP and tokens. If there is more information I don’t know about, please post the references here. It doesn’t make sense to discuss over possibilities, as there are too many to consider; but I will reply to your speculations.

Beside there could be a way of buying and selling TP points in-game for Silver Coins, kind of like what happens on Spiral Knights.

We don’t know if players will be able to sell/trade tokens or TP. As you said, “there could be a way…”. If they allow players to sell/buy TP, yes, the game will become pay2win, simply for the fact that if I can buy TP with real money, and I can then sell it for silver, I can buy just any items I want/need with real money. But that is just an if. From what I know, nothing was announced on these matters. So, let’s not speculate.

At the part of Movement Speed bonus, makes it look’s like as the player will not be able to move on a free account.
And yes, the game is turning pay to win. Even more because of the Movement speed bonus […]

I’m assuming you played ToS. Could you move? If so, your argument is invalid. What happens is the FREE players will move the way we were moving on iCBT (assuming for the fact they used +3 for PREMIUM, not -3 for FREE), but the PREMIUM players will move a bit faster (+3, but I have no idea how much faster +3 means…). Now, I’m gonna try to guess stuff here as well and explain why (I think) they did this. First, we played iCBT and we had no problems with movement speed. We could play just fine with it, so that speed is enough. However, many players were saying it was a bit too slow and boring. In other words, not the ideal movement speed for a smooth gameplay. It is clear IMC was aware of these complaints when they asked us in the feedback form if we thought the game was okay the way it is or it was too slow. So, from our feedback, they decided a bit faster would be better, which doesn’t mean the way it was on iCBT isn’t good.

[…] and the Trade Between Characters being only for Tokens (which I believe will have 9 digits on the price when they are sold on the market, if it does not turns to token users feature).
The tax on the market is also very painfull.

I already discussed above on the TP and tokens being sold on the market, so let`s talk about the trade and tax parts. Yes, you need to pay to use trade. Yes, you need to pay to use the market with a decent tax rate. None of these are pay2win. These are just features that were cut from the FREE stuff. In other words, cut from the DEMO version of the game. If you want to play the full game, pay for it. These are pay2play features, not pay2win.

Now, notice this may look strange because this is new stuff. Many games offer DEMO versions, but how to offer DEMO in an MMORPG? In my opinion, IMC/Nexon got it right! They didn’t limit how far you can go in the story/world map (like other MMORPGs already did - see LOTR Online -, and it doesn’t work well), they just limited your interaction with other players. If you enjoy the game, pay for it and get all the features any MMORPG offer.

Like people already said above, ToS is not free to play. It is more like a pay2play with a DEMO version.

They just need to implement a maximum sell price, just like Blizzard did to the playtime coins, where one playtime coin is sold for 100 golds, and is bought with 100 golds.

I just said that of the movement speed 0 to troll.
Also, you did not saw the danger, a player being quicker than the other may cause a serie of
disadvantages on the game, like making paying players isolate themselves from non paying players
because they will not want to wait the free player that were following
the paying players when they are running to another map.
Alongside to beggining a holocaust of speed runners.

The full version lasts 30 days.

Sincerelly, I disagree, even though there is a “demo” version of the game, that can end up being a
disaster.
One example of a game that have a “demo” and “full” version is Elsword, once you get a mount you
can clear all dungeons in seconds, and say f*** you to your other party members who are trying to
help you in the combat.

[quote=“Nakano15, post:9, topic:125711”]
They just need to implement a maximum sell price, just like Blizzard did to the playtime coins, where one playtime coin is sold for 100 golds, and is bought with 100 golds.
[/quote]I guess that’s not the point here xD! The point is we have no data on this (TP/token being sold on market) to discuss the side effects. But of all options, the best in my opinion is to completely block TP/token trading.

[quote=“Nakano15, post:9, topic:125711”]
I just said that of the movement speed 0 to troll.Also, you did not saw the danger, a player being quicker than the other may cause a serie of disadvantages on the game, like making paying players isolate themselves from non paying players because they will not want to wait the free player that were following the paying players when they are running to another map.Alongside to beggining a holocaust of speed runners.
[/quote]I thought you were just exaggerating, of course. But I agree with you. Different movement speeds may cause some premium players to avoid playing with free players because turtles in the team would just slow them down. Well, we don’t know how faster is +3 anyway. Perhaps it’s almost nothing… but people would complain way less if they changed this one thing. But to me, with all the other limitations they put to free players, I wouldn’t even care about being a little slower. The rest makes way more difference and would make me 1) buy premium or 2) leave the game. When I say I take this monetization model as pay2play with a free DEMO I mean it. You don’t play DEMOs forever… if you like it, you pay for the entire game; if you don’t, you just play a little of the DEMO and leave. That’s my opinion though.

[quote=“Nakano15, post:9, topic:125711”]
The full version lasts 30 days.
[/quote]Subscription model. It is not something new. Even RO (at least in my country) used this model. I think this is much more appropriate than these “buy once, play forever” models for online games, as the costs of maintaining the servers and staff are monthly, plus all the updates and new episodes being released for years… they don’t pay for them once and that’s it. It’s very different from offline games. I know many other games with online servers successfully use the “buy once” model, then they add cosmetics/DLCs (or even pay2win, sometimes) to compensate; but I still think monthly subscription is fair in these cases.

[quote=“Nakano15, post:9, topic:125711”]
Sincerelly, I disagree, even though there is a “demo” version of the game, that can end up being a disaster.One example of a game that have a “demo” and “full” version is Elsword, once you get a mount you can clear all dungeons in seconds, and say f*** you to your other party members who are trying to help you in the combat.
[/quote]Never played Elsword, but from what you said, it’s very different. If paying just gives you the ability to clear the game quickly, it’s pay2win. Notice in ToS, free players are [mostly] only limited in the interaction with other players (except for the movement speed thing). They don’t gain super powers for paying. It’s a very different way of handling this system and exactly what separates it from pay2win.

I will be fine if IMC doesn’t follow KOG’s model.
KOG model is the one of the dirtiest game payment model which I experience.

KOG charges everything from you :smiley:
Enchantment failure preventing item, gatcha, extra skill / item slots, wedding system, mp regen ring, pet and pet food, etc.
You will not play game without the real money since you enter the Sander region. (exception : you have a teriffic movement control)

From what we know, ToS won’t be like that :relieved:

I am worried about these “ESSENTIAL” enchantment which require the failure preventing item D:
I hope IMC learnt from Tera online (After the Rising patch) payment system.
I don’t know later, but thier paying system is not that bad. NO such a preventing item.
If IMC doesn’t exploit users which KOG did, then I will be fine :smiley:

Yes, it is pay 2 play.

The issue here, is they are advertising themselves as free to play, when it really isn’t. If they advertise themselves as a sub based game, with a free trial/demo, things would make sense again.

In an interview that the Indonesian publisher had with the devs, they mentioned that there would be nothing in the cash shop related to item enhancement.

With those kind of limitation, soon this game will be able to join Sony’s free to play model.
Because on the future will limit party, guilds, market to free players.

And do not use Ragnarok Online as an example, the game is mostly played by botters.

Plus if the player must or buy premium or leave the game, I believe the game will end up with the
same population as North American Granado Espada server in the future.

Just dropping in to say that the Base movespeed in icbt2 was 30 if i remember correctly

Trade between Characters i can’t trade with other player or with my own characters like account bank??

because would be terrible if i cant share itens and gold with my friends just because they don’t pay

Have anyone drank the speed potion that adds 2 movement for 10 minutes?
The bonus was pretty insignificant. (Or at least I felt so)

So with the indefinite +3 movement speed, it will just be a matter of seconds when travelling from 1 map to another by foot. At least, that is how I see it. :sweat:

This! i have no problem spending my money on the game. What i take issue with is the stupid way they are trying to make you pay them.