Tree of Savior Forum

Thaumaturge C1 viable as a filler class?

Class and Rank Wizard
#21

tl;dr- Go Linker. Psycho if you plan on PvP and Thaum if you find yourself dying a lot.

C3 Thaum reporting in.

As a filler you have a few choices but I would limit them to Linker, Thaum, or Psycho.

But it really depends on how you play and what your goal is.

Don’t take C1 Thaum for the buff. That is silly. If it is for the buff alone then your circle will be wasted in every party instance with another Thaum (even if you have maxed attributes chances are, in time, they will to, so you will not have been needed). C1 Thaum is for Transpose. If you find that, even with summons out, you are dying a lot, then Thaum may be a good pick (if you currently have more INT than CON; if you have more CON than INT you could use it to pick up some more damage for your Pyro Skills but likely not a lot). CON adds not only HP but HP Recovery, Block, and Crit Resistance, making Transpose useful for not only the HP pool but also for getting out of a tight spot with additional block etc. Additionally your Thaum buffs will not help your summons. Being able to shrink or swell enemies is also a very unique trait that you may enjoy.

Psycho would be a better pick if you plan on PvP and already have a solid stat build. Psycho brings CC to the table and you’ll be able to keep your enemy pinned down while your summons destroy them. Additionally you have get out of jail cards by being able to teleport away, swap locations with the player (into your ground based AoE’s, i.e. drop a few fireballs etc on top of you and then swap places with them), and more. It’s a very versatile class that shines with Sorc. However it is better with Cryo than Pyro.

Linker would be the filler I would pick for your build. You have a lot of AoE and with your summons you will melt through a pull. Additionally, unlike Thaum where buffs can be overwritten or useless when another higher circle Thaum is in the party, a Linker will always be useful. You could be in a party with 2 or 3 other Linkers of varying levels but it won’t matter; your circle into Linker will still be useful. Not only will it help with your solo play but it will help as well with party play. Anyone who has played with a Linker in the party will be able to see the differences in clear speeds. Also worth mentioning is that even on bosses you can use Linker/Pyro effectively by linking the boss to multiple fireballs and then knot if the boss moves away from them. All around though I feel Linker would be best suited to your build.

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#22

I never said Linker was trash, I said Linker C2 is trash. It’s a whole other circle devoted for a +2/3 to JP link count.

As for meeting another Thaumaturge, I have not seen many around, like at all. And most are C1 or C2.

#23

Like I said, maybe you just need to go into the higher level content to experience the full difference between Linker 1 and Linker 2.

When I said you were making linker out to be trash, I was talking about the implications of your calling Linker (both 1 and 2) nothing more than “just a JP bot,” which I believe is an unfair description because it is an overall condescending statement that could scare away many players from linker when linker is still quite viable.

You don’t need to explicitly say something for your words to have connotative implications.

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#24

Linker is just a JP bot, I’ve been to many threads on this forum and everyone has agreed. Physical Link is detrimental to your party, Hangman’s Knot is nothing but a bonus, you can live without it. And Spiritual Chain passes down about 6 to 7 exclusive buffs from rare classes.

Linker 2 is trash, that’s all I’ve said. And it’s mainly pertaining to the fact that their C2 exclusive spell, SC, is totally worthless unless said specific class is there(Plague Doctor, QS3). As Thaumaturge, you’re not a buff bot, you can CC and double EXP and loot, you have much more utility than just “linking enemies every 22 seconds”.

NTM Linker is an extremely boring class compared to other flashy classes.

Also I’m pretty late into the game already, 170s. I’m well aware that linking speeds up dungeons, but that doesn’t change the fact that C2 Linker is a worthless circle to go into unless you want to ascend to C3.

#25

Thauma’s actually amazing for archers

And when R8 is ■■■■, you can do Thauma 2 and have a semi-spammable reversi for PvP stuff!

#26

Thaumaturge has no CC whatsoever whilst Linker at least has hangman’s knot, so I don’t know why you bring that up.

Doubling loot every 25 seconds will not help as much in situations outside of loot farming. You’ll get more exp faster by having linker 2 than by doubling the exp of 1-5 monsters every 25 seconds, and the math/logical reasoning is there if you just think about it.

Thaumaturge still has good utility, no denying that; however, Linker C2 has good utility too.

If you’re going to disregard Darkon’s (very well supported) argument by saying you haven’t personally seen many thaumaturges around, why don’t you disregard your own argument about dandel gems because I highly doubt you’ve seen many of those around either.

#27

Thaumaturge has no CC? Shrink and Swell make them slower or do less damage with the right attributes, that and with the fact they are both spammable spells with Overheat properties are CC.

Linker C2 has utility that a Linker C1 already has, you just don’t understand that. Investing ONE WHOLE CIRCLE for +2/3 joint penalty targets is just silly even if you wanna be a support.

Regarding Dandel gems, if you haven’t noticed I have been saying 2/3 multiple times in my arguments, acknowledging it’s presence and it’s absence.

It is clear you’re speaking as a person who haven’t played either of these classes with inadequate understanding or knowledge.

#28

Just a little nit pick about Thau1 is that Swell Left will only last for 50 seconds, meaning you will have to recast semi-often.

If you are full support this isn’t a problem, but it might get in the way of your DPS rotation every now and then.

#29

The cooldown and duration are the same, so you have to get in AOE of everyone and refresh it ever so often, but yeah as a support, that’s your only priority honestly.

#30

I don’t know how you got this idea in your head, but it’s wrong.

People who say this don’t understand how the core of this game works.

You guys need to understand, there are only two consistent aspects of the damage formula that do not scale linearly. Neither of them have anything to do with buffs or gear. The first is multihit - which is inherent in the skills you use. The second is enhancement, which you buy at the trainer.

The damage formula is pretty complicated, but you can pretty easily simplify it for most damage spells

Damage portion * enhancement * multihit

where damage portion = skill dmg + matk + elemental property attack

So for a level 15 fireball with a maxed attribute, and thauma 1 maxed attribute at say level 150 with a 100 damage rod, 200 int and arde you’re looking at

324 skill damage + 150 level matk + 218 thauma1 buff + 100 rod matk + 200 int matk + 153 arde fire prop damage = 1145 per tic

Multiply that by a maxed enhancement = 2290

Multiply that by 15 hits = 34,350 damage. At level 150. Really, really good.

People say all the time “flat damage bad” but what they don’t understand is that this entire game is based around flat damage. There are two set in stone multipliers and for the vast majority of spells that is IT. The only other way you have to raise your damage is to get more of those “bad” flat numbers.

Saying 218 matk is trivial is the equivalent of saying you shouldn’t upgrade from your level 75 fire rod to the best orange rod in the game @270. Who would say that? It’s completely bonkers.

#31

Exactly, so many idiots say “flat damage sucks”. Guess what? The very weapon and Arde Dagger you’re using provides flat damage FYI. It’s literally a second weapon or even a third weapon with Swell Left Arm.

Makes me really really regret choosing Linker 2 over Thaumaturge. I was a foooooooooool.

#32

Arde is mostly useful cause its a lv 75 item.
At lv 240+ most people wouldnt care about a +150 additional dmg, whether its from sub weapon or buff.
As of now, yes a +200-300 buff from Thaum c2 matters. But you gotta think down the road. Once we reach lv 350-400. 200-300pts of extra damage is close to negligible.
On the other hand, a c2 linker will likely remain useful.

#33

At lv 240+ most people wouldnt care about a +150 additional dmg

yes they do, otherwise no one would use level 220+ weapons or use weapon anvils. What exactly do you think a weapon anvil does?

a +200-300 buff from Thaum c2 matters

Thauma2 is +479 damage. 150 + 150 + 111 + 68

Not surprising that people who hold your simplistic point of view fail at basic addition.

A 479 flat damage buff is never going to not be useful. NEVER.

#34

o playing as a mage i wasnt rly considering the thauma2 buff since i dont forsee myself using a dagger after lolopanther. 479 would be quite a lot for other classes tho

#35

If you get attributes for skills to 100%, does that only increase the base damage of the skill? or would the damage you would have normally done be doubled? if thats the case, then the swell buffs would actually be double for skills?

#36

No, Thaumaturge’s attributes to slow down and make them deal less damage would fall under the category of debuffing, not CC. Even if you did count it as CC, you would have to realize that simply slowing down monsters by 45% is worse at doing the CC job than even hangman’s knot + joint penalty since the monsters will guaranteed be taking longer to kill, especially if you have a party of single target DPS’ers (YOU INCREASE THE HP OF MONSTERS YOU SWELL, OH AND BTW WHEN YOU SLOW THEM THEY HIT HARDER).

If you’re saying Thaumaturge is cc’er (which it’s not, it’s debuffer and buffer), then why can’t you even acknowledge linker’s CCing (you only said they’re a joint penalty bot).

There are others who share this view as well. If you notice in the popular ToS wizard builds spreadsheet, Thaumaturge has a CC ranking of 1 when it isn’t paired with another CC’ing class. click here to see for yourself

Of course cc’ing isn’t Linker’s main role (since the nerf), but using swell body or shrink body to “cc” monsters isn’t the role of thaumaturge either, their role is mainly to buff. Not to mention if there happens to be another thaumaturge 2 or 3 somewhere, they’re going to take that person over a linker 1 thau 1 who has weaker buffs and can only link 5 monsters.

Neither you nor I have a thaumaturge, so you can stop saying I’m inexperienced in that department because so are you, but at least I’m listening to Darkon’s argument (who is actually a thaumaturge, but you disregarded what he said anyway despite not being one yourself and only ever saying you wish you chose it over linker 2).

Actually, I do know quite a bit about linker since I play one (I just see no need in declaring myself a Linker as if it’s the only thing making my arguments credible), and I even test the attributes and skills around myself and pay attention to how having just a 2/3 monster upgrade goes a long way instead of coming up with one-dimensional conclusions.

I’m actually totally fine with you saying thaumaturge is good enough to consider c1 as a filler, because I agree with you. My main gripe is when you said this:

You seriously think that most dungeons have only groups of 5 away from each other? Haven’t you ever played with a tanker? You think going from 5–> 8 is no big deal because you don’t feel a difference?

The main reason why you’re completely wrong at that point is because the difference adds up over time!! Linking 3 more monsters every 22 seconds adds up, and before you know it you link hundreds more monsters that you wouldn’t have with only Linker c1.

By your logic, having joint penalty at lvl 1 would be almost the same thing as having it at lvl 5 since it’s only a 2 monster difference (duration of joint penalty aside, let’s just say you can kill the monsters in under 15 secs).

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#37

Eh didn’t even read what you have to say, the moment you told me a debuff is not a CC I was done reading.

To anyone saying mages don’t care about flat damage just do yourself a favor and educate yourself.

#38

I guess it’s a good thing you didn’t read, since it saves you from re-reading your own illogical quotes.

Freezing a mob in place is a debuff as well as a CC.
Gathering all enemies and holding them in place is a CC.
Reducing damage of monsters and making them slower are both just debuffs.

Go find me a thaumaturge guide or player who claims their class has CC and I’ll consider changing my mind.

Or you can just keep having your judgement clouded with narrow-mindedness, it doesn’t really matter. There’s really no point in trying to reason with a C2 linker in the late 170s that believes people run dungeons killing only 5-monster groups at a time anyways.

#39

This person is telling me a 15% slow per attribute level is not a form of CC. In any game, MOBA or MMO, a slow is considered a soft CC. But depending on severity it can become a hard CC, some games have 100% slow penalties making it essentially a root. How is that not a CC? Once again, like your Dandel gem argument, if it’s not present then you assume it’s not present? Just cause you don’t see Thaumaturges playing their class as a CC you assume it’s not there. Pretty contradictory to me IMO.

Reducing damage to a point where it doesn’t matter is also a form of CC FYI. I’ve done many dungeon runs luring mass amount of mobs, finding even a C2 JP not sufficient as there is cleaning up to be done and I’ve nothing I can do about it regardless. It will only get worse in the future, JP is good for scattered mobs, but if you’re able to mass taunt them, you’re not really required, just an added bonus.

No matter what you say, it doesn’t change the fact that C2 Linker is a total waste of a circle unless you play with friends with specific classes. If you’re gonna say I’m stubborn and narrow minded, you’re just quite the same. NTM salty.

#40

So I guess Slow can be called a Soft CC.