I don’t think IMC knows what to do with the swordie yet (specially with more ranks being made available). What should a high rank swordie be anyway? The only truly unique thing they can do is taunt (outside of merchant/special classes that is) and block on demand.
Every class can do damage, buff and debuff. You can argue that some classes can “aggro” by introducing additional targets for aggressive monsters to target (thereby increasing the players mob size). Only the swordie (specifically pelt) can taunt via [swashbuckling]. Maybe build around that idea? I don’t know.
Based on what is already available (be it from a monster, npc, previously implemented skill, or even skill from other classes), what skill/attribute should the swordie have to give it a unique role that answers the question “Why should I pick swordie instead of 1 of the other 3 base classes?” Please refrain from giving “role playing” answers.
Imo swordie have high HP, and can DPS quite ok, PVE wise, I think that ppl who choose to play swordie like their character beefy and can absorb some dmg.
Swordsman does have the ability to taunt, though that isn’t really unique to swordsman.
Dievdirbys can indirectly taunt with statues, though it’s practicality isn’t very high, similar to quarrel shooter’s deploy pavise, which is a lot more useful than statues for getting aggro, but swordsman still has the provoke passive, and ofcourse swash buckling.
Aside from that, swordsman have higher natural HP, and can benefit the most from wearing a shield, so maximizing on HP/Block can do wonders for swordsman in PvP and PvE (though CC is still a problem, its slowly becoming less of a problem, and in premade pvp, it isn’t really a problem).
The other thing is pierce damage. Being able to wear spears and having pierce based skills can be extremely useful on bosses.
Imo, swordsman isn’t really the best at anything (aside from tanking), but they have enough classes to be able to do various other things while still being able to take hits without losing out on too much. I’m sure with the introduction of classes such as Luchador/Matador, we’ll maybe have some more unique features for swordsman.
Swordsman is :
-The class with most knockdown attacks.
This is not a status ailment that can be prevented by Oracle’s Prophecy, nor PD’s Beak Mask, nor PD’s Bloodletting, nor Dispeller Scroll. The other classes almost have no way to prevent this.
-The class with the most HP growth.
At level 280, with full CON, Archer has roughly 37k HP, Cleric has 38k, Wizard has 36k, Swordsman has 47k.
-The class with a lot of “special treatment” in terms of defensive measures against physical attacks.
Shield Guard (Peltasta), Guardian (Peltasta), High Guard (Peltasta), Finestra (Hoplite), Lunge (Fencer), Esquive Toucher (Fencer), Flaconnade (Fencer), Pain Barrier (Swordsman), Slithering (Rodelero).
-The class with high risks management.
Double Pay Earn (Dopplesoldner), Deeds of Valor (Dopplesoldner), Mijin no Jutsu (Shinobi), Gae Bulg (Dragoon), Throwing Spear (Hoplite), Shield Lob (Peltasta). But of course, Peltasta’s Shield Lob is crap.
-The class that can lure the whole map and good aggro control (11-21 mobs with Swashbuckling).
-The class with the most insane movement speed (you can use it nonstop as long as you have SP) if you play Cataphract c3.
-The only class that has access to spear, 2 handed spear, 2 handed sword, rapier.
-The only class that is able to create a guild (Templar).
-The class with very easy early game unless you pick Peltasta c3.
I don’t mean to nit pick but this will be nit picking … cuz that’s what it is.
Knock downs
OK, this I really took for granted. But to say it can’t be prevented is pretty much a half truth. It’s like saying swordies are invisible. Moving out of range prevents it. Then there’s the fact that it’s practically “useless” in pve.
HP
What is all that HP if you have NO WAY to bring that buck up when you take damage? If swordies had a mechanic to “play with” having more hp then THAT would be something. Gain x% more atk and/or def for every y% missing hp?
Special treatment
They need it. It’s not an “advantage”, it’s a necessity. Swordies have risk by having to be in melee (not by choice, it is forced on them though it does have its perks - splash normal atk for 1). This basically ties in with the HP. These are attempts to give having more HP more value. The other classes don’t need this special treatment.
Risk management
Where is the “risk” management? In [double pay earn] sure I can see it, but the skills is there to reward you for choosing to kill something you can kill quickly (and therefore “safely”). Like say something weaker than you but instead of getting a piddly amount of xp you get more (as though you killed something stronger). Should you choose to fight something that could kill you, the risk is the same even if you were a different class.
It’s pretty much the same for [deeds of valor]. It helps you kills faster so being in danger less negates taking more damage when your target can’t attack anymore (being dead that is). Then there’s actually being able to play around this by using gear that doesn’t rely on def. If you use this in full plate and a shield then that’s on you.
[mijin no jutsu] is for “in case you get hit” and not something you use to deal damage.
The throws penalty doesn’t even mean much because you WILL be going into melee anyway cuz the rest of your skills are melee.
[swashbuckling]
Already covered. I agree completely.
Movespeed
Duly noted. I must admit I have taken this for granted.
Spears/rapiers
That’s like saying only archers can use bows and xbows. Only wizards can use staves. This basically falls into “role play”.
Guilds
That’s like saying only pardoners can sell scrolls/buffs. Only alchemists can make pots.
Easy early game
“Easy” is relative. Spamming oblique was easy (hell that was all I could spam pre rank 4 on my archer). [barrage] every 18 sec was easy. Having [heal] as a cleric made everything easy. [flame ground] made playing a wiz easy.
I know what I sound like. I sound like a whiny kid. But this is a legitimate concern because it affects 1/4 the playable classes in tos.
This is what I would like the swordie to be. It’s a nice solid role in pve, but falls flat in pvp. Taunts only work in st*pid targets. Anything with a brain will ignore taunts.
Here are some ideas on how to make taunts work against people.
apply a dot that can be removed by hitting the taunter
deal x damage when the taunted attacks anything other than the taunter
apply a slow (on/off attribute) when moving away from the taunter
apply a short stun (on/off attribute)
I’m not really in favor of damage skills on a tank since the tanking class is hell bent on neutering you damage for defense.
Why not gain attack ratio including/instead of def.
Now there’s an idea. Why not have the swordie be a stat swapper (coughthaumacough). They could focus on swapping stats you normally cant manipulate (though only attack ratio comes to mind). [restrain] trades max hp for stun chance. Maybe something like slower aspd for kd chance?
“The other classes almost have no way to prevent this.”
Useless huh?
Knockdown has saved me and my party many times when we were outnumbered in several party missions and dungeons. But of course, it’s situational in PvE and most people overlook it.
All that HP is mainly for tanking in grinding and bossfight. If you are talking about PvP, it’s a different thing. With very high HP, at least you won’t get 1-2 shots killed by Archer like this and you can still chase down your opponent by running.
Edit : Oh yes, add 1 more point. Swordsman is the only class that can “run”.
The description of the skill says
“Attack enemies in the area nearby by exploding the gunpowder you have. Using this technique will also damage you and might cause incapability of combat if your HP is too low.”
It deals 4812 damage to your enemy while sacrificing a lot of your HP. That’s the risk management.
Small, big, a risk is still a risk, am I correct?
In PvP, at the slighest second when you don’t have your weapon nor shield, people may destroy you in a blink of an eye.
You asked about the uniqueness about swordie, I answered.
If someone else asked about the uniqueness about archer and other classes, I will also answer in the same manner.
Correct. My thoughts about this is still flawed.
Nah, you don’t have to worry about it.
I’ll admit that I was also concerned about how underwhelming Swordsman is.
A lot of people were asking for Swordsman to be nerfed back then, and now here’s where we stand.
“practically” meant you have to put yourself in a position to need to have to use it. “I pulled to many now I have to KD”, “The cleric used [heal] to do damage, now I have to KD”. “Someone stood in fire, now I have to KD”. Basically “something bad happened because reasons, now I have to KD”. I have played with and without KD. If you don’t do something to need to KD, then you don’t need KD. That is why I said “practically useless” instead of just “useless”.
My bad. I do not know why I kept thinking [mokuton no jutsu] even though I read the skill before typing. That right there is indeed risk management.
What I mean with the throw skills is that you gain risk from going in because your other skills require you go in therefore the risk is not due to the throw but because your non throw skills require you to go in. You expose yourself to danger because that is how melee works. You aren’t in more danger for going out to pick up your spear than you are for going out to melee something.
This is mostly because of chaplain. If all I wanted was to melee then I could go chaplain and do that AND still have heal AND have party relevance in higher ranks AND what ever other perks going cleric offers.
If you ever experienced this party mission where the whole party will get stuck in one place and suddenly 30-50 mobs were thrown in your face in just short notice, you will be forced to use KD. Unless you are lucky that you have a Priest with Revive on your side, or Paladin with Barrier, you don’t have much choice. That’s what I meant by situational.
That’s exactly why throwing our weapons/shields away can be dangerous and risky.
Once you throw them, you must get them back, and during that duration, you are much more vulnerable because most skills require you to have your weapons/shields on.
That’s the problem with Cleric. They can heal, deal tons of damage, revive, ressurect, invisible, give bonus block, bonus resist magic attack, resist status ailments, inflict status ailments.
However, that’s it for Cleric. It’s unlikely they will get any buff or nerf in the near future except if they get new classes.
Despite all that, I still have hope and expectations for Swordsman at higher ranks. I won’t complain too much for now. I shall see where my Templar leads me.
Is funny you mention templar because right now all I see the swordie as is a pelt something c2 squire templar because damage doesn’t seem to be the thing (my hopes of a bunshin build shattered due to bad AI).
Anyway, I’m hoping for more squires and templar classes instead of just more classes the just do damage restricted by some weird weapon mechanic.
Even though I said I’m concerned with Swordsman, once I play it, I’m still enjoying it in the end.
Besides, Peltasta, Highlander, Hoplite, Corsair, Barbarian, Dragoon are not that bad actually.
Just because they don’t have the same damage output as Archer or Wizard, that doesn’t mean they are the weakest or not needed in the game.
Considering I see Swordsman as a tank (which means Peltasta is one of my absolute choice), Swordsman is still a great addition for the party, especially in higher level dungeons like dg 240. The amount of magician and archer monsters there is ridiculous. Your high HP and Swashbuckling will contribute a lot.
Or some benefit for moving like -x sec on skills on cd for every y tiles crossed. Any thing more interesting than damage on top of damage wrapped in damage.
That actually sounds incredibly terrible, Cataphract skills have already received an immense reduction in skill cooldown, they use to be absurdly high, now they’re at acceptable, almost overpowered levels, to give even more reduction in cooldowns while moving is as absurd as the old skill cooldowns.
Besides, momentum increasing Cataphract damage is more logical than what you’re suggesting.
Gain a momentum stack per tile crossed. All momentum stacks are consumed on the next attack for + x% (or maybe flat damage increase? that is the trend in tos anyway) damage per stack consumed. Could be an attribute for picking cata.
Well, rush has pretty bad damage, I’d say that could use a buff for a c3 skill.
Also a chronomancer can bring an entire party’s movement speed up to similar that of a c3 cataphract. Cata doesn’t seem nearly that appealing just for mobility. I’d give both of them love, but rodelero more for sure. I’d love to see a better passive for 2h spears.
Cataphract is more common than Rodelero, even though there are some people who still have their hopes for Rodelero and took Rodelero c3 for rank 7.
I disagree. It’s a multi hit skill with pretty long duration. That explains the low damage and long cooldown.
I’m still unsure about how many mov spd bonus we can have from Haste level 10.
Cataphract can have 54 movement speed at max. 30 normal speed, 4 mount bonus, 20 Trot bonus (level 15).
IMO, these 2 points are the most important :
-Make the attack animation for the skills slighty faster (especially Montano, Targe Smash, Shield Push).
-Make some skills have more AoE attack ratio at least 1 or 2 (especially Montano and Shield Push).
One of the worst part while playing a Rodelero (especially in PvP) is we have a pretty hard time to hit our opponents with our skills. We really need to get close to them and the skills can be avoided easily because they have no AoE atk ratio and somehow a bit slow animation.
Additional buffs :
-Somehow our movement speed feels a bit slow while using Slithering and Shield Charge. Make an attribute for those skills to increase our movement speed during the duration. 3-4 movement speed bonus, 3-4 level max, 1 movement speed bonus for each level increased. With this, Rodelero can rotate their skills properly and use their combo to beat their opponents. This will make Rodelero an actual threat in PvP.
-Make it so Shield Charge has similar knockdown + pushback effect as Monk’s Energy Blast and we can use it against players (but the weird thing is, somehow my opponent could resist it and didnt get pushback. I dunno if it was a bug or not). For a 40 seconds cooldown CC skill that only has 5 seconds maximum duration, at least it has to be this strong.
-Reduce cooldown for Shooting Star. My gosh, even Hoplite’s Stabbing can deal 399 damage from each hit (You can deal around 9-10 hits with it! You can also gain bonus evasion and magic defense during its duration!) with only 25 seconds cooldown. Meanwhile, even though Shooting Star can deal 8 hits at max with overheat, the damage is still smaller than Hoplite’s Stabbing (392 damage), not to mention it is a c3 skill. Reduce 30 seconds cooldown to 20-24 seconds.
